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4.419

And Adeimantus broke in and said,

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What will be your defence, Socrates, if anyone objects that you are not making these men very happy,Adeimantus’s criticism is made from the point of view of a Thrasymachus (343 A, 345 B) or a Callicles (Gorgias 492 B-C or of Solon’s critics (cf. my note on Solon’s Trochaics to Phokos, Class. Phil . vol. vi. pp. 216 ff.). The captious objection is repeated by Aristotle, Politics 1264 b 15 ff., though he later (1325 a 9-10) himself uses Plato’s answer to it, and by moderns, as Herbert Spencer, Grote, Newman to some extent (Introduction to Aristotle’s Politics, p. 69.), and Zeller (Aristotle, ii. p. 224) who has the audacity to say that Plato demanded the abolition of all private possession and the suppression of all individual interests because it is only in the Idea or Universal that he acknowledges any title to true reality. Leslie Stephen does not diverge so far from Plato when he says (Science of Ethics, p. 397): The virtuous men may be the very salt of the earth, and yet the discharge of a function socially necessary may involve their own misery. By the happiness of the whole Plato obviously maens not an abstraction but the concrete whole of which Leslie Stephen is thinking. But from a higher point of view Plato eloquently argues (465 B-C) that duty fulfilled will yield truer happiness to the guardians than seeking their own advantage in the lower sense of the word. and that through their own fault? For the city really belongs to them and yet they get no enjoyment out of it as ordinary men do by owning lands and building fine big houses and providing them with suitable furniture and winning the favor of the gods by private sacrificesCf. 362 C, and Laws 909 D ff. where they are forbidden. and entertaining guests and enjoying too those possessions which you just now spoke of, gold and silver and all that is customary for those who are expecting to be happy?

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But they seem, one might say, to be established in idleness in the city, exactly like hired mercenaries, with nothing to do but keep guard.

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Yes,

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said I,

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and what is more, they serve for board-wages and do not even receive pay in addition to their food as others do,Other men, ordinary men. Cf. 543 B ὧν νῦν οἱ ἄλλοι, which disposes of other interpretations and misunderstandings. so that they will not even be able to take a journeyThis is, for other reasons, one of the deprivations of a tyrant (579 B). The Laws strictly limits travel (949 E). Here Plato is speaking from the point of view of the ordinary citizen. on their own account, if they wish to, or make presents to their mistresses, or spend money in other directions according to their desires like the men who are thought to be happy. These and many similar counts of the indictment you are omitting.

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Well,

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said he,

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assume these counts too.

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3

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What then will be our apology you ask?

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Yes.

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By following the same path I think we shall find what to reply. For we shall say that while it would not surprise us if these men thus living prove to be the most happy, yet the object on which we fixed our eyes in the establishment of our state was not the exceptional happiness of any one class but the greatest possible happiness of the city as a whole. For we thoughtCf. 369 A. that in a state so constituted we should be most likely to discover justice as we should injustice in the worst governed state, and that when we had made these out we could pass judgement on the issue of our long inquiry. Our first task then, we take it, is to mold the model of a happy state—we are not isolatingἀπολαβόντες, separating off, abstracting, may be used absolutely as in Gorgias 495 E, or with any object as 392 E. a small class in it and postulating their happiness, but that of the city as a whole. But the opposite type of state we will consider presently.That is 449 A and books VIII. and IX. The degenerate types of state are four, but the extreme opposite of the good state, the tyranny, is one. It is as if we were coloring a statue and someone approached and censured us, saying that we did not apply the most beautiful pigments to the most beautiful parts of the image, since the eyes,So Hippias Major 290 B. which are the most beautiful part, have not been painted with purple but with black— we should think it a reasonable justification to reply, Don’t expect us, quaint friend, to paint the eyes so fine that they will not be like eyes at all, nor the other parts. But observe whether by assigning what is proper to each we render the whole beautiful.For this principle of aesthetics Cf. Phaedrus 264 C, Aristotle Poetics 1450 b 1-2. And so in the present case you must not require us to attach to the guardians a happiness that will make them anything but guardians. For in like manner we couldWe know how to. For the satire of the Socialist millenium which follows cf. Introduction p. xxix, and Ruskin, Fors Clavigera. Plato may have been thinking of the scene on the shield of Achilles, Iliad xviii. 541-560. clothe the farmers in robes of state and deck them with gold and bid them cultivate the soil at their pleasure, and we could make the potters recline on couches from left to righti.e. so that the guest on the right hand occupied a lower place and the wine circulated in the same direction. Many write ἐπὶ δεξιά, but A ἐπιδέξια. Forever, ’tis a single word. Our rude forefathers thought it two. before the fire drinking toasts and feasting with their wheel alongside to potter with when they are so disposed, and we can make all the others happy in the same fashion, so that thus the entire city may be happy.

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But urge us not to this, since, if we yield, the farmer will not be a farmer nor the potter a potter, nor will any other of the types that constitute state keep its form. However, for the others it matters less. For cobblersNote the ab urbe condita construction. For the thought cf. 374 B. Zeller and many who follow him are not justified in inferring that Plato would not educate the masses. (Cf. Newman, Introduction to Aristotle’s Politics, i. p. 160.) It might as well be argued that the high schools of the United States are not intended for the masses because some people sometimes emphasize their function of fitting for college. In the Republic Plato describes secondary education as a preparation for the higher training. The secondary education of the entire citizenry in the Laws marks no change of opinion (Laws 818 ff.). Cf. Introduction p. xxxiii. who deteriorate and are spoiled and pretend to be the workmen that they are not are no great danger to a state. But guardians of laws and of the city who are not what they pretend to be, but only seem, destroy utterly, I would have you note, the entire state, and on the other hand, they alone are decisive of its good government and happiness. If then we are forming true guardians and keepers of our liberties, men least likely to harm the commonwealth, but the proponent of the other ideal is thinking of farmers and happy feasters as it were in a festival and not in a civic community, he would have something else in mindThe expression is loose, but the meaning is plain. The principle one man, one task makes the guardians real guardians. The assumption that their happiness is the end is incompatible with the very idea of a state. Cf. Introduction pp. xxix f. ἑστιάτορας recalls μέλλοντα ἑστιάσεσθαι345 C, but we are expected to think also of the farmers of 420 E. than a state. Consider, then, whether our aim in establishing the guardians is the greatest possible happiness among them or whether that is something we must look to see develop in the city as a whole, but these helpers and guardians are to be constrained and persuaded to do what will make them the best craftsmen in their own work, and similarly all the rest. And so, as the entire city develops and is ordered well, each class is to be left, to the share of happiness that its nature comports.

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Well,

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he said,

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I think you are right.

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And will you then,

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I said,

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also think me reasonable in another point akin to this?

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What pray?

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Consider whether these are the causes that corrupt otherThe guardians are δημιουργοὶ ἐλευθερίας (395 C). craftsmen too so as positively to spoil them.ὥστε καὶ κακούς, I think, means so that they become actually bad, not so that they also become bad. Cf. Lysis 217 B.

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What causes?

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Wealth and poverty,

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5

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said I.

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How so?

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Thus! do you think a potter who grew rich would any longer be willing to give his mind to his craft?

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By no means,

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said he.

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But will he become more idle and negligent than he was?

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Far more.

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Then he becomes a worse potter?

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Far worse too.

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And yet again, if from poverty he is unable to provide himself with tools and other requirements of his art, the work that he turns out will be worse, and he will also make inferior workmen of his sons or any others whom he teaches.

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Of course.

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From both causes, then, poverty and wealth, the products of the arts deteriorate, and so do the artisans?

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So it appears.

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Here, then, is a second group of things it seems that our guardians must guard against and do all in their power to keep from slipping into the city without their knowledge.

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What are they?

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Wealth and poverty,

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said I,

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since the one brings luxury, idleness and innovation, and the other illiberality and the evil of bad workmanship in addition to innovation.

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Assuredly,

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he said;

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yet here is a point for your consideration, Socrates, how our city, possessing no wealth, will be able to wage war, especially if compelled to fight a large and wealthy state.

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Obviously,

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said I,

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it would be rather difficult to fight one such, but easier to fight two.Apparent paradox to stimulate attention. Cf. 377 A, 334 A, 382 A, 414 B-C, 544 C, Laws 919 B. For images from boxing cf. Aristotle Met. 985 a 14, and Demosthenes’ statement (Philip. i. 40-41) that the Athenians fight Philip as the barbarians box. The Greeks felt that lesser breeds without the law were inferior in this manly art of self-defense. Cf. the amusing description of the boxing of Orestes and Plylades by the ἄγγελος in Euripides I. T. 1366 ff.

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What did you mean by that?

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he said.

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Tell me first,

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I said,

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whether, if they have to fight, they will not be fighting as athletes of warCf. 416 E, 403 E. against men of wealth?

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Yes, that is true,

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he said.

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Answer me then, Adeimantus. Do you not think that one boxer perfectly trained in the art could easily fight two fat rich men who knew nothing of it?

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Not at the same time perhaps,

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said he.

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Not even,

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said I,

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if he were allowed to retreatCf. Herodotus iv. 111. and then turn and strike the one who came up first, and if he repeated the procedure many times under a burning and stifling sun? Would not such a fighter down even a number of such opponents?

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Doubtless,

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he said;

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it wouldn’t be surprising if he did.

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Well, don’t you think that the rich have more of the skill and practiceTwo elements of the triad φύσις, μελέτη, ἐπιστήμη. Cf. 374 D. of boxing than of the art of war?

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I do,

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he said.

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It will be easy, then, for our athletes in all probability to fight with double and triple their number.

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I shall have to concede the point,

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he said,

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for I believe you are right.

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Well then, if they send an embassy to the other city and say what is in fact trueCf. Herodotus vii. 233 τὸν ἀληθέστατον τῶν λόγων, Catullus x. 9 id quod erat.: We make no use of gold and silver nor is it lawful for us but it is for you: do you then join us in the war and keep the spoils of the enemy,The style is of intentional Spartan curtness.—do you suppose any who heard such a proposal would choose to fight against hard and wiry hounds rather than with the aid of the hounds against fat and tender sheep?

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I think not.

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Yet consider whether the accumulation of all the wealth of other cities in one does not involve danger for the state that has no wealth.

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What happy innocence,

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said I,

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to suppose that you can properly use the name city of any other than the one we are constructing.

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Why, what should we say?

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he said.

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A greater predication,

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said I,

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must be applied to the others. For they are each one of them many cities, not a city, as it goes in the game.As they say in the game or in the jest. The general meaning is plain. We do not know enough about the game called πόλεις (cf. scholiast, Suidas, Hesychius, and Photius) to be more specific. Cf. for conjectures and deatils Adam’s note, and for the phrase Thompson on Meno 77 A.

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There are two at the least at enmity with one another, the city of the rich and the city of the poor,Cf. Aristotle Politics 1316 b 7 and 1264 a 25. and in each of these there are many. If you deal with them as one you will altogether miss the mark, but if you treat them as a multiplicity by offering to the one faction the property, the power, the very persons of the other, you will continue always to have few enemies and many allies. And so long as your city is governed soberly in the order just laid down, it will be the greatest of cities. I do not mean greatest in repute, but in reality, even though it have only a thousandAristotle, Politics 1261 b 38, takes this as the actual number of the military class. Sparta, according to Xenephon, Rep. Lac. 1. 1, was τῶν ὀλιγανθρωποτάτων πόλεων, yet one of the strongest. Cf. also Aristotle Politics 1270 a 14 f. In the LawsPlato proposes the number 5040 which Aristotle thinks too large, Politics 1265 a 15. defenders. For a city of this size that is really oneCommentators, I think, miss the subtlety of this sentence; μίαν means truly one as below in D, and its antithesis is not so much πολλάς as δοκούσας which means primarily the appearance of unity, and only secondarily refers to μεγάλην. καί then is rather and than even. So large a city that is really one you will not easily find, but the semblance (of one big city) you will find in cities many and many times the size of this. Cf. also 462 A-B, and my paper Plato’s Laws and the Unity of Plato’s Thought, Class. Phil . 1914, p. 358. For Aristotle’s comment Cf. Politics 1261 a 15. you will not easily discover either among Greeks or barbarians—but of those that seem so you will find many and many times the size of this. Or do you think otherwise?

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No, indeed I don’t,

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said he.

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Would not this, then, be the best rule and measure for our governors of the proper size of the city and of the territory that they should mark off for a city of that size and seek no more?

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What is the measure?

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I think,

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said I,

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that they should let it grow so long as in its growth it consentsThe Greek idea of government required that the citizens know one another. They would not have called Babylon, London, or Chicago cities. Cf. Introduction p. xxviii, Fowler, Greek City State, passim, Newman, Aristotle Politics vol. i. Introduction pp. 314-315, and Isocrates’ complaint that Athens was too large, Antidosis 171-172. to remain a unity, but no further.

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Excellent,

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he said.

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Then is not this still another injunction that we should lay upon our guardians, to keep guard in every way that the city shall not be too small, nor great only in seeming, but that it shall be a sufficient city and one?

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That behest will perhaps be an easyIronical, of course. one for them,

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he said.

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And still easier,Ironical, of course. haply,

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I said,

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is this that we mentioned beforeCf. on 415 B. when we said that if a degenerate offspring was born to the guardians he must be sent away to the other classes, and likewise if a superior to the others he must be enrolled among the guardians; and the purport of all this wasThe special precept with regard to the guardians was significant of the universal principle, one man, one task. Cf. 443 C, 370 B-C (note), 394 E, 374 A-D, Laws 846 D-847 B. that the other citizens too must be sent to the task for which their natures were fitted, one man to one work, in order that each of them fulfilling his own function may be not many men, but one, and so the entire city may come to be not a multiplicity but a unity.It is a natural growth, not an artificial contrivance. For Aristotle’s criticism cf. Politics 1261 A.

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Why yes,

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he said,

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this is even more trifling than that.

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These are not, my good Adeimantus, as one might suppose, numerous and difficult injunctions that we are imposing upon them, but they are all easy, provided they guard, as the saying is, the one great thingThe proverbial one great thing (one thing needful). The proverb perhaps is: πόλλ’ οἶδ’ ἀλώπηξ ἀλλ’ ἐχῖνος ἓν μέγα (Suidas). Cf. Archil. fr. 61 ἓν δ’ ἐπίσταμαι μέγα, Politicus 297 A μέχριπερ ἂν ἓν μέγα φυλάττωσι.—or instead of great let us call it sufficient.μέγα has the unfavorable associations of ἔπος μέγα, and ἱκανόν, adequate, is characteristically preferred by Plato.

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What is that?

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he said.

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Their education and nurture,

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I replied.

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For if a right educationCf. on 416 E. Plato of course has in mind the education already described and the higher education of books VI. and VII. makes of them reasonable men they will easily discover everything of this kind—and other principles that we now pass over, as that the possession of wives and marriage, and the procreation of children and all that sort of thing should be made as far as possible the proverbial goods of friends that are common.The indirect introduction of the proverb is characteristic of Plato’s style. Cf. on 449 C, where the paradox thus lightly introduced is taken up for serious discussion. Quite fantastic is the hypothesis on which much ink has been wasted, that the Ecclesiazusae of Aristophanes was suggested by this sentence and is answered by the fifth book. Cf. introduction pp. xxv and xxxiv. It ought not to be necessary to repeat that Plato’s communism applies only to the guardians, and that its main purpose is to enforce their disinterestedness. Cf. Introduction pp. xv and note a, xxxiv, xlii, xliv, and Plato’s Laws and the Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 358. Aristotle’s criticism is that the possessions of friends ought to be common in use but not in ownership. Cf. Politics 1263 a 30, and Euripides Andromache 376-377.

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Yes, that would be the best way,

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he said.

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And, moreover,

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said I,

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the state, if it once startsCf. Politcus 305 D τὴν ἀρχήν τε καὶ ὁρμήν. well, proceeds as it were in a cycleNo concrete metaphor of wheel, hook or circle seems to be intended, but only the cycle of cumulative effect of education on nature and nature on education, described in what follows. See the evidence collected in my note, Class. Phil. vol. v. pp. 505-507. of growth. I mean that a sound nurture and education if kept up creates good natures in the state, and sound natures in turn receiving an education of this sort develop into better men than their predecessors both for other purposes and for the production of offspring as among animals also.Cf. 459 A.

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It is probable,

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he said.

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To put it briefly, then,

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said I,

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it is to this that the overseers of our state must cleave and be watchful against its insensible corruption. They must throughout be watchful against innovations in music and gymnastics counter to the established order, and to the best of their power guard against them, fearing when anyone says that

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That song is most regarded among men

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Which hovers newest on the singer’s lips,

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Hom. Od. 1.351

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6

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lest haply

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7

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it be supposed that the poet means not new songs but a new way of song

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8

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and is commending this. But we must not praise that sort of thing nor conceive it to be the poet’s meaning. For a change to a new type of music is something to beware of as a hazard of all our fortunes. For the modes of music

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9

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are never disturbed without unsettling of the most fundamental political and social conventions, as Damon affirms and as I am convinced.

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10

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Set me too down in the number of the convinced,

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said Adeimantus.

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It is here, then,

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I said,

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in music, as it seems, that our guardians must build their guard-houseThe etymological force of the word makes the metaphor less harsh than the English translation guard-house. Cf. Laws 962 C, where Bury renders safeguard. Cf. Pindar’s ἀκόνας λιγυρᾶς, the sharpening thing, that is, the whetstone, Ol. vi. 82. and post of watch.

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It is certain,

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he said,

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that this is the kind of lawlessnessπαρανομία besides its moral meaning (537 E) suggests lawless innovation in music, from association with the musical sense of νόμος. Cf. Chicago Studies in Class. Phil. i. p. 22 n. 4. that easily insinuatesSo Aristotle Politics 1307 b 33. itself unobserved.

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Yes,

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said I,

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because it is supposed to be only a form of playCf. the warning aagainst innovation in children’s games, Laws 797 A-B. But music is παιδεία as well as παιδιά. Cf. Aristotle’s three uses of music, for play, education, and the entertainment of leisure (Politics 1339 a 16). and to work no harm.

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Nor does it work any,

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he said,

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except that by gradual infiltration it softly overflowsCf. Demosthenes xix. 228. The image is that of a stream overflowing and spreading. Cf. Euripides fr. 499 N. and Cicero’s use of serpit, Cat. iv. 3, and passim. upon the characters and pursuits of men and from these issues forth grown greater to attack their business dealings, and from these relations it proceeds against the laws and the constitution with wanton licence, Socrates, till finally it overthrowsCf. on 389 D. all things public and private.

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Well,

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said I,

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are these things so?

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I think so,

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he said.

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Then, as we were sayingThe reference is to the general tenor of what precedes. in the beginning, our youth must join in a more law-abiding play, since, if play grows lawless and the children likewise, it is impossible that they should grow up to be men of serious temper and lawful spirit.

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Of course,

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he said.

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And so we may reason that when children in their earliest play are imbued with the spirit of law and order through their music, the opposite of the former supposition happens—this spirit waits upon them in all things and fosters their growth, and restores and sets up again whatever was overthrown in the otherπρότερον is an unconscious lapse from the construction of an ideal state to the reformation of a degenerate Athens. Cf. Isocrates Areopagiticus 41 ff., and Laws 876 B-C, 948 C-D. type of state.

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True, indeed,

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he said.

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Then such men rediscover for themselves those seemingly trifling conventions which their predecessors abolished altogether.

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Of what sort?

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Such things as the becoming silenceFor these traits of old-fashioned decorum and modesty cf. Aristophanes Clouds 961-1023, Blaydes on 991, Herodotus ii. 80, Isocrates Areopagiticus 48-49. of the young in the presence of their elders; the giving place to them and rising up before them, and dutiful service of parents, and the cut of the hairCf. Starkie on Aristophanes Wasps 1069. and the garments and the fashion of the foot-gear, and in general the deportment of the body and everything of the kind. Don’t you think so?

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I do.

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Yet to enact them into laws would, I think, be silly.Cf. on 412 B, Isocrates Areopagiticus 41, and Laws 788 B, where the further, still pertinent consideration is added that the multiplication of minor enactments tends to bring fundamental laws into contempt. Cf. Plato’s Laws and the Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 353, n. 2. For such laws are not obeyed nor would they last, being enacted only in words and on paper.

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How could they?

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At any rate, Adeimantus,

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I said,

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the direction of the education from whence one starts is likely to determine the quality of what follows. Does not like ever summon like?

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Surely.

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And the finalCf. 401 C, Demosthenes Olynth. iii. 33 τέλειόν τι καὶ μέγα. outcome, I presume, we would say is one complete and vigorous product of good or the reverse.

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Of course,

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said he.

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For my part, then,

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I said,

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for these reasons I would not go on to try to legislate on such matters.τὰ τοιαῦτα is slightly contemptuous. Specific commercial, industrial and criminal legislation was not compatible with the plan of the Republic, and so Plato omits it here. Much of it is given in the Laws, but even there details are left to the citizens and their rulers. Cf. on 412 B.

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With good reason,

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said he.

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But what, in heaven’s name,

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said I,

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about business matters, the dealsCf. Laws 922 A, Aristotle Politics 1263 b 21. All legal relations of contract, impied contract and tort. that men make with one another in the agora— and, if you please, contracts with workmenIn Laws 920 D Plato allows a δίκη ἀτελοῦς ὁμολογίας against workmen or contractors who break or fail to complete contracts. and actions for foul languageCf. Laws 935 C.There was no λοιδορίας δίκη under that name at Athens, but certain words were actionable, ἀπόρρητα and there was a δίκη κακηγορίας. and assault, the filing of declarations,Plato shows his contempt for the subject by this confused enumeration, passing without warning from contracts and torts to procedure and then to taxes, market, harbor and police regulations. the impanelling of juries, the payment and exaction of any dues that may be needful in markets or harbors and in general market, police or harbor regulations and the like, can we bringτολμήσομεν is both venture and deign. ourselves to legislate about these?

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Nay, ʼtwould not be fitting,

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he said,

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to dictate to good and honorable men.Cf. Isocrates Panegyr. 78 ὅτι τοῖς καλοῖς κἀγαθοῖς τῶν ἀνθρώπων οὐδὲν δεήσει πολλῶν γραμμάτων. For most of the enactments that are needed about these things they will easily, I presume, discover.

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Yes, my friend, provided God grants them the preservation of the principles of law that we have already discussed.

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Failing that,

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said he,

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they will pass their lives multiplying such petty laws and amending them in the expectation of attaining what is best.

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You mean,

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said I,

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that the life of such citizens will resemble that of men who are sick, yet from intemperance are unwilling to abandonCf. Emerson, Experience: They wish to be saved from the mischiefs of their vices but not from their vices. Charity would be wasted on this poor waiting on the symptoms. A wise and hardy physician will say, Come out of that as the first condition of advice. their unwholesome regimen.

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By all means.

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And truly,

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said I,

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these latter go on in a most charmingIronical. Quite fanciful is Dümmler’s supposition (Kleine Schriften, i, p. 99) that this passage was meant as destructive criticism of Isocrates Panegyricus and that Antidosis 62 is a reply. Plato is obviously thinking of practical politicians rather than of Isocrates. fashion. For with all their doctoring they accomplish nothing except to complicate and augment their maladies. Andπλήν γε etc., is loosely elliptical, but emendations are superfluous. they are always hoping that some one will recommend a panacea that will restore their health.

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A perfect description,

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he said,

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of the state of such invalids.

4.426

And isn’t this a charming trait in them, that they hate most in all the world him who tells them the truth that until a man stops drinking and gorging and wenching and idling, neither drugsFor the list cf. Pindar, Pyth. iii. 50-54. οὐδ’ αὖ emphasizes the transition to superstitious remedies in which Plato doesn’t really believe. Cf. his rationalizing interpretations of ἐπῳδαί, Charmides 157 A, Theaetetus 149 C. Laws 933 A-B is to be interpreted in the spirit of the observation in Selden’s Table Talk: The law against witches does not prove that there be any but it punishes the malice, etc. [Demosthenes] xxv. 80 is sceptical. nor cautery nor the knife, no, nor spells nor periaptsCf. any lexicon, Shakespeare 1 Henry VI. v. iii. 2 Now help, ye charming spells and periapts, and Plutarch’s story of the women who hung them on Pericles’ neck on his death-bed. will be of any avail?

4.426

Not altogether charming,

4.426

he said,

4.426

for there is no grace or charm in being angryCf. 480 A, 354 A. with him who speaks well.

4.426

You do not seem to be an admirerThe noun is more forcible than the verb would be. Cf. Protagoras 309 A ἐπαινέτης. of such people,

4.426

said I.

4.426

No, by heaven, I am not.

4.426

Neither then, if an entire city,We return from the illustration to its application to the state. as we were just now saying, acts in this way, will it have your approval, or don’t you think that the way of such invalids is precisely that of those cities which being badly governed forewarn their citizens not to meddleCf. 497 B, Aristotle Politics 1301 b 11. Cf. the obvious imitation in the (probably spurious) Epistle vii. 330 E. For the thought, from the point of view of an enemy of democracy, cf. the statement in [Xenophon] Rep. Ath. 3. 9, that the faults of Athens cannot be corrected while she remains a democracy. The Athenians naturally guarded their constitution and viewed with equal suspicion the idealistic reformer and the oligarchical reactionary. with the general constitution of the state, denouncing death to whosoever attempts that—while whoever most agreeably servesCf. , p. 65 note d, and Laws 923 B. The phraseology here recalls Gorgias 517 B, Aristophanes Knights 46-63. Cf. Plato’s Laws and the Unity of Plato’s Thought, Class Phil. vol. ix. (Oct. 1914) p. 363, n. 3. them governed as they are and who curries favor with them by fawning upon them and anticipating their desires and by his cleverness in gratifying them, him they will account the good man, the man wise in worthwhile things,Almost technical. Cf. 538 B. the man they will delight to honor?

4.426

Yes,

4.426

he said,

4.426

I think their conduct is identical, and I don’t approve it in the very least.

4.426

And what again of those who are willing and eager to serveHere serve, not flatter. such states? Don’t you admire their valiance and light-hearted irresponsibilityThis word εὐχέρεια is often misunderstood by lexicons and commentators. It is of course not dexterity (L. and S.) nor yet probably complaisance, nor yet humanitas or Gutmütigkeit as Adam and Schneider think. It expresses rather the light-heartedness with which such politicians rush in where wiser men fear to tread, which is akin to the lightness with which men plunge into crime. Cf. Laws 690 D τῶν ἐπὶ νόμων θέσιν ἰόντων ῥᾳδίως and 969 ἀνδρειότατος. Plato’s political physician makes come out of that a precondition of his treatment. Cf. Laws 736-737, Politicus 299 A-B, 501 A, 540 E, Epistle vii. 330 C-D, and the story in Aelian. V.H. ii. 42. of Plato’s refusal to legislate for the Arcadians because they would not accept an equalization of property.?

4.426

I do,

4.426

he said,

4.426

except those who are actually deluded and suppose themselves to be in truth statesmenCf. Euthyphro 2 C-D, Gorgias 513 B, Politicus 275 C and 292 D. because they are praised by the many.

4.426

What do you mean? Can’t you make allowancesPlato often condescendingly and half ironically pardons psychologically inevitable errors. Cf. 366 C, Phaedrus 269 B, Euthydemus 306 C. for the men? Do you think it possible for a man who does not know how to measure when a multitude of others equally ignorant assure him that he is four cubits tall not to suppose this to be the fact about himself?

4.426

Why no,For οὐκ αὖ cf. 393 D, 442 A, Theaetetus 161 A, Class. Phil. vol. xxiii. pp. 285-287. ἔγωγε above concurs with ἄγασαι, ignoring the irony. πλήν γε etc. marks dissent on one point. This dissent is challenged, and is withdrawn by οὐκ αὖ . . . τοῦτο γε (οἶμαι).

4.426

he said,

4.426

I don’t think that.

4.426

Then don’t be harsh with them. For surely such fellows are the most charming spectacle in the world when they enact and amend such laws as we just now described and are perpetually expecting to find a way of putting an end to frauds in business and in the other matters of which I was speaking because they can’t see that they are in very truth τῷ ὄντι points the application of the proverbial ὕδραν τέμνειν, which appears in this now trite metaphorical use for the first time here and in Euthydemus 297 C. Cf. my note on Horace iv. 4. 61. For the thought cf. Isocrates vii. 40, Macrob. Sat. ii. 13 leges bonae ex malis moribus procreantur, Arcesilaus apud Stobaeus Flor. xliii. 981 οὕτω δὴ καὶ ὅπου νόμοι πλεῖστοι ἐκεῖ καὶ ἀδικίαν εἶναι μεγίστην, Theophrastus apud Stobaeus Flor. xxxvii. 21 ὀλίγων οἱ ἀγαθοὶ νόμων δέονται. trying to cut off a Hydra’s head.

4.427

Indeed,

4.427

he said,

4.427

that is exactly what they are doing.

4.427

I, then,

4.427

said I,

4.427

should not have supposedIronically, I should not have supposed, but for the practice of our politicians. that the true lawgiver ought to work out matters of that kind εἶδος νόμων πέρι is here a mere periphrasis, though the true classification of laws was a topic of the day. Cf. Laws 630 E, Aristotle Politics 1267 b 37. Plato is not always careful to mark the distinction between the legislation which he rejects altogether and that which he leaves to the discretion of the citizens. in the laws and the constitution either of an ill-governed or a well-governed state—in the one because they are useless and accomplish nothing, in the other because some of them anybody could discover and others will result spontaneously from the pursuits already described.

4.427

What part of legislation, then,

4.427

he said,

4.427

is still left for us?

4.427

And I replied,

4.427

For us nothing, but for the Apollo of Delphi, the chief, the fairest and the first of enactments.

4.427

What are they?

4.427

he said.

4.427

The founding of temples, and sacrifices, and other forms of worship of gods, daemons, and heroes; and likewise the burial of the dead and the services we must render to the dwellers in the world beyond ἐκεῖ=in the other world. So often. to keep them gracious. For of such matters we neither know anything nor in the founding of our city if we are wise shall we entrust them to any other or make use of any other interpreterFor the exegete as a special religious functionary at Athens. cf. L. and S. s. v. and Laws 759 C-D. Apollo in a higher sense is the interpreter of religion for all mankind. He is technically πατρῷος at Athens (Euthydemus 302 D) but he is πάτριος for all Greeks and all men. Plato does not, as Thümser says (p. 301), confuse the Dorian and the Ionian Apollo, but rises above the distinction. than the God of our fathers.Plato prudently or piously leaves the deatils of ceremonial and institutional religion to Delphi. Cf. 540 B-C, Laws 759 C, 738 B-C, 828 A, 856 E, 865 B, 914 A, 947 D. For this God surely is in such matters for all mankind the interpreter of the religion of their fathers who from his seat in the middle and at the very navelThis navel stone, supposed to mark the center of the earth, has now been found. Cf. Poulsen’s Delphi , pp. 19, 29, 157, and Frazer on Pausanias x. 16. of the earth delivers his interpretation.

4.427

Excellently said,

4.427

he replied;

4.427

and that is what we must do.

4.427

At last, then, son of Ariston,

4.427

said I,

4.427

your cityNot the ἀναγκαιοτάτη πόλις of 369 E, nor the φλεγμαίνουσα πόλις of 372 E, but the purified city of 399 E has now been established and described. The search for justice that follows formulates for the first time the doctrine of the four cardinal virtues and defines each provisionally and sufficiently for the present purpose, and solves the problems dramatically presented in the minor dialogues, Charmides, Laches, etc. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, pp. 15-18, nn. 81-102, and the introduction to the second volume of this translation. may be considered as established. The next thing is to procure a sufficient light somewhere and to look yourself, αὐτός τε καί: cf. 398 A. and call in the aid of your brother and of Polemarchus and the rest, if we may in any wise discover where justice and injusticeSee on 369 A. Matter-of-fact critics may object that there is no injustice in the perfectly good state. But we know the bad best by the canon of the good. Cf. on 409 A-B. The knowledge of opposites is the same. Injustice can be defined only in relation to its opposite (444 A-B), and in the final argument the most unjust man and state are set up as the extreme antitypes of the ideal (571-580). By the perfect state Plato does not mean a state in which no individual retains any human imperfections. It is idle then to speak of difficulties or contradictions or changes of plan in the composition of the Republic. should be in it, wherein they differ from one another and which of the two he must have who is to be happy, alikeFor ἐάν τε . . . ἐάν τε cf. 367 E. whether his condition is known or not known to all gods and men.

4.427

Nonsense,

4.427

said Glaucon,

4.427

youCf. 331 E. Emphatic as in 449 D-450 A, Phaedo 95 A, and Alc. I. 135 D. promised that you would carry on the search yourself, admitting that it would be impiousCf. 368 B-C. for you not to come to the aid of justice by every means in your power.

4.427

A true reminder,

4.427

I said,

4.427

and I must do so, but you also must lend a hand.

4.427

Well,

4.427

he said,

4.427

we will.

4.427

I expect then,

4.427

said I,

4.427

that we shall find it in this way. I think our city, if it has been rightly founded is good in the full sense of the word.Cf. 434 E, 449 A. This in a sense begs the original question in controversy with Thrasymachus, by the assumption that justice and the other moral virtues are goods. Cf. Gorgias 507 C. See The Idea of Good in Plato’s Republic, p. 205. For the cardinal virtues cf. Schmidt, Ethik der Griechen, i. p. 304, Pearson, Fragments of Zeno and Cleanthes, pp. 173 f., and commentators on Pindar, Nem. iii. 74, which seems to refer to four periods of human life, and Xenophon Memorabilia iii. 9. 1-5, and iv. 6. 1-12. Plato recognizes other virtues even in the Republic (402 C ἐλευθεριότης and μεγαλοπρέπεια. Cf. 536 A), and would have been as ready to admit that the number four was a part of his literary machinery as Ruskin was to confess the arbitrariness of his Seven Lamps of Architecture.

4.427

Necessarily,

4.427

he said.

4.427

Clearly, then, it will be wise, brave, sober, and just.

4.427

Clearly.

4.427

Then if we find any of these qualities in it, the remainderIt is pedantry to identify this with Mill’s method of residues and then comment on the primitive naïveté of such an application of logic to ethics. One might as well speak of Andocides’ employment of the method (De myst. 109) or of its use by Gorgias in the disjunctive dilemma of the Palamedes 11 and passim, or say that the dog of the anecdote employs it when he sniffs up one trail and immediately runs up the other. Plato obviously employs it merely as a literary device for the presentation of his material under the figure of a search. He, in the infancy of philosophy, is quite as well aware as his censors can be in the senility of criticism that he is not proving anything by this method, but merely setting forth what he has assumed for other reasons. will be that which we have not found?

4.428

Surely.

4.428

Take the case of any four other things. If we were looking for any one of them in anything and recognized the object of our search first, that would have been enough for us, but if we had recognized the other three first, that in itself would have made known to us the thing we were seeking. For plainly there was nothing left for it to be but the remainder.

4.428

Right,

4.428

he said.

4.428

And so, since these are four, we must conduct the search in the same way.

4.428

Clearly.

4.428

And, moreover, the first thing that I think I clearly see therein is the wisdom,σοφία is wisdom par excellence. Aristotle, Met. i., traces the history of the idea from Homer to its identification in Aristotle’s mind with first philosophy for metaphysics. For Plato, the moralist, it is virtue and the fear of the Lord; for his political theory it is the political or royal art which the dramatic dialogues fail to distinguish from the special sciences and arts. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 17, n. 97, Protagoras 319 A, Euthydemus 282 E, 291 C, Gorgias 501 A-B, etc. In the unreformed Greek state its counterfeit counterpart is the art of the politician. In the Republic its reality will be found in the selected guardians who are to receive the higher education, and who alone will apprehend the idea of the good, which is not mentioned here simply because Plato, not Krohn, is writing the Republic. and there is something odd about that, it appears.

4.428

What?

4.428

said he.

4.428

Wise in very deed I think the city that we have described is, for it is well counselled, is it not?

4.428

Yes.

4.428

And surely this very thing, good counsel,Protagoras, like Isocrates, professed to teach εὐβουλία (Protagoras 318 E), which Socrates identifies at once with the political art. Plato would accept Protagoras’s discrimination of this for the special arts (ibid. 318 ff.), but he does not believe that such as Protagoras can teach it. His political art is a very different thing from Protagoras’s εὐβουλία and is apprehended by a very different education from that offered by Protagoras. Cf. Plato’s Laws and the Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 348, n. 5, Euthydemus 291 B-C, Charmides 170 B, Protagoras 319 A, Gorgias 501 A-B, 503 D, Politicus 289 C, 293 D, 309 C. is a form of wisdom. For it is not by ignorance but by knowledge that men counsel well.

4.428

Obviously.

4.428

But there are many and manifold knowledges or sciences in the city.

4.428

Of course.

4.428

Is it then owing to the science of her carpenters that a city is to be called wise and well advised?

4.428

By no means for that, but rather mistress of the arts of building.

4.428

Then a city is not to be styled wise because of the deliberationsβουλευομένη: Heindorf’s βουλευομένην is perhaps supported by ᾗ . . . βουλεύεται below, but in view of Plato’s colloquial anacloluthic style is unnecessary. of the science of wooden utensils for their best production?

4.428

No, I grant you.

4.428

Is it, then, because of that of brass implements or any other of that kind?

4.428

None whatsoever,

4.428

he said.

4.428

Nor yet because of the science of the production of crops from the soil, but the name it takes from that is agricultural.

4.428

I think so.

4.428

Then,

4.428

said I,

4.428

is there any science in the city just founded by us residing in any of its citizens which does not take counsel about some particular thing in the city but about the city as a whole and the betterment of its relations with itselfCf. on 416 C. and other states?

4.428

Why, there is.

4.428

What is it,

4.428

said I,

4.428

and in whom is it found?

4.428

It is the science of guardianship or government and it is to be found in those rulers to whom we just now gave the name of guardians in the full sense of the word.

4.428

And what term then do you apply to the city because of this knowledge?

4.428

Well advised,

4.428

he said,

4.428

and truly wise.

4.428

Which class, then,

4.428

said I,

4.428

do you suppose will be the more numerous in our city, the smiths or these true guardians?

4.428

The smiths, by far,

4.428

he said.

4.428

And would not these rulers be the smallest of all the groups of those who possess special knowledge and receive distinctive appellationsCf. Protagoras 311 E τί ὄνομα ἄλλο γε λεγόμενον περὶ Πρωταγόρου ἀκούομεν; ὥσπερ περὶ Φειδίου ἀγαλματοποιὸν καὶ περὶ Ὁμήρου ποιητήν.?

4.428

By far.

4.429

Then it is by virtue of its smallest class and minutest part of itself, and the wisdom that resides therein, in the part which takes the lead and rules, that a city established on principles of nature would be wise as a whole. And as it appears these are by nature the fewest, the class to which it pertains to partake of the knowledge which alone of all forms of knowledge deserves the name of wisdom.

4.429

Most true,

4.429

he said.

4.429

This one of our four, then, we have, I know not how, discovered, the thing itself and its place in the state.

4.429

I certainly think,

4.429

said he,

4.429

that it has been discovered sufficiently.

4.429

But again there is no difficulty in seeing bravery itself and the part of the city in which it resides for which the city is called brave.τοιαύτη such, that is, brave. The courage of a state, qua such, also resides in a small class, the warriors.

4.429

How so?

4.429

Who,

4.429

said I,

4.429

in calling a city cowardly or brave would fix his eyes on any other part of it than that which defends it and wages war in its behalf?

4.429

No one at all,

4.429

he said.

4.429

For the reason, I take it,

4.429

said I,

4.429

that the cowardice or the braveryἀνδρεῖοι ὄντες: the ab urbe condita construction. Cf. 421 A. of the other inhabitants does not determine for it the one quality or the other.τοίαν . . . ἢ τοίαν: cf. 437 E, Phaedrus 271 D, Laws 721 B.

4.429

It does not.

4.429

Bravery too, then, belongs to a city by virtue of a part of itself owing to its possession in that part of a quality that under all conditions will preserve the conviction that things to be feared are precisely those which and such as the lawgiverCf. 442 C, Aristotle Eth. Nic. 1129 b 19 προστάττει δ’ ὁ νόμος καὶ τὰ τοῦ ἀνδρείου ἔργα ποιεῖν. inculcated in their education. Is not that what you call bravery?

4.429

I don’t altogether understandCf. on 347 A. what you said,

4.429

he replied;

4.429

but say it again.

4.429

A kind of conservation,

4.429

I said,

4.429

is what I mean by bravery.

4.429

What sort of a conservationσωτηρίαν is the genus; Philebus 34 A, Def. Plat. 412 A-B. Hence ποίαν as often in the minor dialogues sometimes with a play on its idiomatic, contemptuous meaning. Cf. Laches 194 D.?

4.429

The conservation of the conviction which the law has created by education about fearful things—what and what sort of things are to be feared. And by the phrase under all conditionsIn the Laches 191 D-E, and the Laws 633 D also, Plato generalizes courage to include resistance to the lure of pleasure. I mean that the brave man preserves it both in pain and pleasures and in desires and fears and does not expelCf. 412 E. it from his soul. And I may illustrate it by a similitudeThe moral training of the guardians is likened to the dyeing of selected white wools with fast colors. Cf. Aristotle Eth. Nic. 1105 a 2, Marc. Aurel. iii. 4. 3 δικαιοσύνῃ βεβαμμένον εἰς βάθος, Sir Thomas Browne, Christian Morals, i. 9 Be what thou virtuously art, and let not the ocean wash away thy tincture. The idea that the underlying subsatnce must be of neutral quality may have been suggested to Plato by Anaxagoras. It occurs in the Timaeus 50 D-E, whence it passed to Aristotle’s psychology and Lucretius. Cf. my paper on Plato, Epicurus, and Lucretius, Harvard Studies, vol. xii. p. 204. if you please.

4.429

I do.

4.429

You are aware that dyers when they wish to dye wool so as to hold the purple hue begin by selecting from the many colors there be the one nature of the white and then give it a careful preparatory treatment so that it will take the hue in the best way, and after the treatment,For the technique cf. Blummer, Technologie, vol. i. pp. 227 ff. The θεράπευσις seems to be virtually identical with the προπαρασκευή, so that the aorist seems appropriate, unless with Adam’s earlier edition we transpose it immediately before οὕτω δή. then and then only, dip it in the dye. And things that are dyed by this process become fast-coloredFor δευσοποιός cf. L. and S., and Nauck, Ἀδέσποτα 441 τοῖς δευσοποιοῖς φαρμάκοις ξανθίζεται. and washing either with or without lyes cannot take away the sheen of their hues. But otherwise you know what happens to them, whetherThe two points of precaution are (1) to select white wool, not ἄλλα χρώματα, (2) to prepare by treatment even this. anyone dips other colors or even these without the preparatory treatment.

4.429

I know,

4.429

he said,

4.429

that they present a ridiculous and washed-out appearance.

4.430

By this analogy, then,

4.430

said I,

4.430

you must conceive what we too to the best of our ability were doing when we selected our soldiers and educated them in musicCf. 522 A, Philebus 17 B. and exercises of the body. The sole aim of our contrivance was that they should be convinced and receive our laws like a dye as it were, so that their belief and faith might beγίγνοιτο is process; ἐκπλύναι (aorist) is a single event (μή). fast-colored both about the things that are to be feared and all other things because of the fitness of their nature and nurture, and that so their dyes might not be washed out by those lyes that have such dreadδεινά: it is not fanciful to feel the unity of Plato’s imagination as well as of his thought in the recurrence of this word in the δεινὰ καὶ ἀναγκαῖα of the mortal soul in Timaeus 69 C. power to scour our faiths away, pleasure more potent than any detergent or abstergent to accomplish this, and pain and fear and desire more sure than any lye. This power in the soul, then, this unfailing conservation of right and lawful beliefCf. Protagoras 360 C-D, Laws 632 C, Aristotle Eth. Nic. 1116 b 24. Strictly speaking, Plato would recognize four grades, (1) philosophic bravery, (2) the bravery of the ἐπίκουροι here defined, (3) casual civic bravery in ordinary states, (4) animal instinct, which hardly deserves the name. Cf. Laches 196 E, Mill, Nature, p. 47 Consistent courage is always the effect of cultivation, etc., Unity of Plato’s Thought, nn. 46 and 77. about things to be and not to be feared is what I call and would assume to be courage, unless you have something different to say.

4.430

No, nothing,

4.430

said he;

4.430

for I presume that you consider mere right opinion about the same matters not produced by education, that which may manifest itself in a beast or a slave,Phaedo 69 B. to have little or nothing to do with lawνόμιμον of the Mss. yields quite as good a meaning as Stobaeus’s μόνιμον. The virtuous habit that is inculcated by law is more abiding than accidental virtue. and that you would call it by another name than courage.

4.430

That is most true,

4.430

said I.

4.430

Well then,

4.430

he said,

4.430

I accept this as bravery.

4.430

Do so,

4.430

said I,

4.430

and you will be right with the reservationγε marks a reservation as 415 E στρατιωτικάς γε, Politicus 30 E, Laws 710 A τὴν δημώδη γε. Plotinus, unlike some modern commentators, perceived this. Cf. Enn. i. 2. 3. In Phaedo 82 A πολιτικήν is used disparagingly of ordinary bourgeois virtue. In Xenophon Rep. Lac. 10. 7 and Aristotle Eth. Nic. iii. 8. 1 (1116 a 17) there is no disparagement. The word is often used of citizen soldiery as opposed to professional mercenaries. that it is the courage of a citizen. Some other time,This dismissal of the subject is sometimes fancifully taken as a promise of the Laches. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, nn. 77 and 603. if it please you, we will discuss it more fully. At present we were not seeking this but justice; and for the purpose of that inquiry I believe we have done enough.

4.430

You are quite right,

4.430

he said.

4.430

Two things still remain,

4.430

said I,

4.430

to make out in our city, sobernessMatthew Arnold’s word. But cf. on 398 D and 430 E — sobriety, temperance, Besonnenheit. and the object of the whole inquiry, justice.

4.430

Quite so.

4.430

If there were only some way to discover justice so that we need not further concern ourselves about soberness.

4.430

Well, I, for my part,

4.430

he said,

4.430

neither know of any such way nor would I wish justice to be discovered first if that means that we are not to go on to the consideration of soberness. But if you desire to please me, consider this before that.

4.430

It would certainly be very wrongεἰ μὴ ἀδικῶ is idiomatic, I ought to. Cf. 608 D, 612, Menexenus 236 B. of me not to desire it,

4.430

said I.

4.430

Go on with the inquiry then,

4.430

he said.

4.430

I must go on,

4.430

I replied,

4.430

and viewed from here it bears more likeness to a kind of concord and harmony than the other virtues did.

4.430

How so?

4.430

Soberness is a kind of beautiful orderCf. Gorgias 506 E ff. σωφροσύνη and σωφρονεῖν sometimes mean etymologically of sound mind or level head, with or without ethical suggestion, according to the standpoint of the spaeker. Cf. Protagoras 333 B-C. Its two chief meanings in Greek usage are given in 389 D-E: subordination to due authority, and control of appetite, both raised to higher significance in Plato’s definition. As in the case of bravery, Plato distinguishes the temperamental, the bourgeois, the disciplined, and the philosophical virtue. But he affects to feel something paradoxical in the very idea of self-control, as perhaps there is. Cf. Laws 626 E ff., 863 D, A.J.P. vol. xiii. pp. 361 f., Unity of Plato’s Thought, nn. 77 and 78. and a continence of certain pleasures and appetites, as they say, using the phrase master of himself I know not how; and there are other similar expressions that as it were point us to the same trail. Is that not so?

4.430

Most certainly.

4.431

Now the phrase master of himself is an absurdity, is it not? For he who is master of himself would also be subject to himself, and he who is subject to himself would be master. For the same person is spoken of in all these expressions.

4.431

Of course.

4.431

But,

4.431

said I,

4.431

the intended meaning of this way of speaking appears to me to be that the soul of a man within him has a better part and a worse part, and the expression self-mastery means the control of the worse by the naturally better part. It is, at any rate, a term of praise. But when, because of bad breeding or some association,Cf. Phaedrus 250 A. the better part, which is the smaller, is dominated by the multitudeCf. 442 A, Laws 689 A-B. The expression is intended to remind us of the parallelism between man and state. See Introduction. of the worse, I think that our speech censures this as a reproach,Cf. Symposium 189 E. and calls the man in this plight unselfcontrolled and licentious.

4.431

That seems likely,

4.431

he said.

4.431

Turn your eyes now upon our new city,

4.431

said I,

4.431

and you will find one of these conditions existent in it. For you will say that it is justly spoken of as master of itself if that in whichCf. 441 D, 443 B, 573 D. the superior rules the inferior is to be called sober and self-mastered.

4.431

I do turn my eyes upon it,

4.431

he said,

4.431

and it is as you say.

4.431

And again, the mob of motleyπαντοδαπός is disparaging in Plato. appetites and pleasures and pains one would find chiefly in childrenπαισί: so Wolf, for Ms. πᾶσι, a frequent error. Cf. 494 B. Plato, like Shakespeare’s Rosalind, brackets boys and women as creatures who have for every passion something and for no passion truly anything. and women and slaves and in the base rabble of those who are freemen in name.Cf. on 336 A. The ordinary man who is passion’s slave is not truly free. The Stoics and Cynics preached many sermons on this text. See Persius, Sat. v. 73. and 124, Epictetus Diss . iv. 1, Xenophon Memorabilia iv. 5. 4, Xenophon Oecon. 1. 22-23.

4.431

By all means.

4.431

But the simple and moderate appetites which with the aid of reason and right opinion are guided by consideration you will find in few and those the best born and best educated.

4.431

True,

4.431

he said.

4.431

And do you not find this too in your city and a domination there of the desires in the multitude and the rabble by the desires and the wisdom that dwell in the minority of the better?

4.431

I do,

4.431

he said.

4.431

If, then, there is any city that deserves to be described as master of its pleasures and desires and self-mastered, this one merits that designation.

4.431

Most assuredly,

4.431

he said.

4.431

And is it not also to be called soberPlato is again proceeding by seemingly minute verbal links. Cf. 354 A, 379 B, 412 D. καὶ μήν introduces a further verification of the definition. in all these respects?

4.431

Indeed it is,

4.431

he said.

4.431

And yet again, if there is any city in which the rulers and the ruled are of one mind as to who ought to rule, that condition will be found in this. Don’t you think so?

4.431

I most emphatically do,

4.431

he said.

4.431

In which class of the citizens, then, will you say that the virtue of soberness has its seat when this is their condition? In the rulers or in the ruled?

4.431

In both, I suppose,που marks the slight hesitation at the deviation from the symmetry of the scheme which would lead us to expect, as Aristotle and others have taken it, that σωφροσύνη is the distinctive virtue of the lowest class. It is so practically for the lower sense of σωφροσύνη, but in the higher sense of the willingness of each to fulfil his function in due subordination to the whole, it is common to all classes.

4.431

he said.

4.431

Do you see then,

4.431

said I,

4.431

that our intuition was not a bad one just now that discerned a likeness between soberness and a kind of harmonyCf. 430 E. Aristotle gives this as an example of (faulty) defintion by metaphor (Topics iv. 3. 5).?

4.431

Why so?

4.432

Because its operation is unlike that of courage and wisdom, which residing in separate parts respectively made the city, the one wise and the other brave. That is not the way of soberness, but it extends literally through the entire gamutδι’ ὅλης: sc. τῆς πόλεως, but as ἀτεχνῶς shows (Cf. on 419 E) it already suggets the musical metaphor of the entire octave διὰ πασῶν. throughout, bringing aboutThe word order of the following is noteworthy. The translation gives the meaning. ταὐτόν, the object of συνᾴδοντας, is, by a trait of style that grows more frequent in the Laws and was imitated by Cicero, so placed as to break the monotony of the accusative terminations. the unison in the same chant of the strongest, the weakest and the intermediate, whether in wisdom or, if you please,For the comparison the kind of superiority is indifferent. See Thompson on Meno 71 E and compare the enumeration of claims to power in the Laws, ἀξιώματα . . . τοῦ ἀρχεῖν, Laws 690 A ff. and 434 B. in strength, or for that matter in numbers, wealth, or any similar criterion. So that we should be quite right in affirming this unanimityThe final statement of the definition, which, however, has little significance for Plato’s thought, when isolated from its explanatory context. Cf. Def. Plat. 413 E, Unity of Plato’s Thought, pp. 15. f., n. 82. Quite idle is the discussion whether σωφροσύνη is otiose, and whether it can be absolutely distinguished from δικαιοσύνη. They are sufficiently distinguished for Plato’s purpose in the imagery and analogies of the Republic. to be soberness, the concord of the naturally superior and inferior as to which ought to rule both in the state and the individual.Cf. on 351 E.

4.432

I entirely concur,

4.432

he said.

4.432

Very well,

4.432

said I.

4.432

We have made out these three forms in our city to the best of our present judgement.Cf. Demosthenes 18 and 430 E ὥς γε ἐντεῦθεν ἰδεῖν. Plato’s definitions and analyses are never presented as final. They are always sufficient for the purpose in hand. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 13, nn. 63-67 and 519. What can be the remaining form thatδι’ ὅ: cf. my paper on the Origin of the Syllogism, Class. Phil . vol. xix. pp. 7 ff. This is an example of the terminology of the theory of ideas already in the first four books. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 35, n. 238, p. 38. would give the city still another virtue? For it is obvious that the remainder is justice.

4.432

Obvious.

4.432

Now then,νῦν δή: i.e. νῦν ἤδη. Glaucon, is the time for us like huntsmenCf. Soph. 235 B, Euthydemus 290 B-C, Phaedo 66 C, Laws 654 E, Parmenides 128 C, Lysis 218 C, Thompson on Meno 96 E, Huxley, Hume , p. 139 There cannot be two passions more nearly resembling each other than hunting and philosophy. Cf. also Hardy’s He never could beat the covert of conversation without starting the game. The elaboration of the image here is partly to mark the importance of δικαιοσύνη and partly to relieve the monotony of continuous argument. to surround the covert and keep close watch that justice may not slip through and get away from us and vanish from our sight. It plainly must be somewhere hereabouts. Keep your eyes open then and do your best to descry it. You may see it before I do and point it out to me.

4.432

Would that I could,

4.432

he said;

4.432

but I think rather that if you find in me one who can follow you and discern what you point out to him you will be making a very fairIt is not necessary, though plausible, to emend μετρίως to μετρίῳ. The latter is slightly more idiomatical. Cf. Terence’s benigno me utetur patre. use of me.

4.432

PrayPrayer is the proper preface of any act. Cf. Timaeus 27 C, Laws 712 B. for success then,

4.432

said I,

4.432

and follow along with me.

4.432

That I will do, only lead on,

4.432

he said.

4.432

And truly,

4.432

said I,

4.432

it appears to be an inaccessible place, lying in deep shadows.

4.432

It certainly is a dark covert, not easy to beat up.

4.432

But all the same on we must go.

4.432

Yes, on.

4.432

And I caught view and gave a hulloa and said,

4.432

Glaucon, I think we have found its trail and I don’t believe it will get away from us.

4.432

I am glad to hear that,

4.432

said he.

4.432

Truly,

4.432

said I,

4.432

we were slackersτὸ πάθος: for the periphrasis cf. 376 A. indeed.

4.432

How so?

4.432

Why, all the time, bless your heart, the thing apparently was tumbling about our feetCf. Theaetetus 201 A. from the start and yet we couldn’t see it, but were most ludicrous, like people who sometimes hunt for what they hold in their hands.A homely figure such as Dante and Tennyson sometimes use. So we did not turn our eyes upon it, but looked off into the distance, which perhaps was the reason it escaped us.

4.432

What do you mean?

4.432

he said.

4.432

This,

4.432

I replied,

4.432

that it seems to me that though we were speaking of it and hearing about it all the time we did not understand ourselvesThis sounds like Hegel but is not Hegelian thought. or realize that we were speaking of it in a sense.

4.432

That is a tedious prologue,

4.432

he said,

4.432

for an eager listener.

4.433

Listen then,

4.433

said I,

4.433

and learn if there is anything in what I say. For what we laid down in the beginning as a universal requirement when we were founding our city, this I think, orCf. on 344 E. Justice is a species falling under the vague genus τὸ ἑαυτοῦ πράττειν, which Critias in the Charmides proposed as a definition of σωφροσύνη (Charmides 161 B), but failed to sustain owing to his inability to distinguish the various possible meanings of the phrase. In the Republic too we have hitherto failed to learn from ourselves its true meaning, till now when Socrates begins to perceive that if taken in the higher sense of spiritual division of labor in the soul and in the state, it is the long-sought justice. Cf. 433 B-D, 443 C-D. some form of this, is justice. And what we did lay down, and often said, you recall, was that each one man must perform one social service in the state for which his nature is best adapted.

4.433

Yes, we said that.

4.433

And again that to do one’s own business and not to be a busybody is justice, is a saying that we have heard from many and have often repeated ourselves.This need not refer to any specific passage in the dialogues. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, n. 236. A Greek could at any time say that minding one’s own business and not being a busybody is σῶφρον or δίκαιον or both.

4.433

We have.

4.433

This, then,

4.433

I said,

4.433

my friend, if taken in a certain sense appears to be justice,τρόπον τινὰ γιγνόμενον: as in the translation, not justice seems somehow to be proving to be this. Cf. 432 E, 516 C, Lysis 217 E, Laws 910 B, 495 A, 596 D, Goodwin, Moods and Tenses, 830. Yet, Cf. Politicus 291 D. this principle of doing one’s own business. Do you know whence I infer this?

4.433

No, but tell me,

4.433

he said.

4.433

I think that this is the remaining virtue in the state after our consideration of soberness, courage, and intelligence, a quality which made it possible for them all to grow up in the body politic and which when they have sprung up preserves them as long as it is present. And I hardly need to remind you thatκαίτοι: cf. on 360 C and 376 B. Here it points out the significance of τὸ ὑπόλοιπον if true, while ἀλλὰ μέντοι introduces the considerations that prove it true. we said that justice would be the residue after we had found the other three.

4.433

That is an unavoidable conclusion,

4.433

he said.

4.433

But moreover,

4.433

said I,

4.433

if we were required to decide what it is whose indwelling presence will contribute most to making our city good, it would be a difficult decision whether it was the unanimity of rulers and ruled or the conservation in the minds of the soldiers of the convictions produced by law as to what things are or are not to be feared, or the watchful intelligence that resides in the guardians, or whether this is the chief cause of its goodness, the principle embodied in child, woman, slave, free, artisan, ruler, and ruled, that each performed his one task as one man and was not a versatile busybody.

4.433

Hard to decide indeed,

4.433

he said.

4.433

A thing, then, that in its contribution to the excellence of a state vies with and rivals its wisdom, its soberness, its bravery, is this principle of everyone in it doing his own task.

4.433

It is indeed,

4.433

he said.

4.433

And is not justice the name you would have to giveγε argues from the very meaning of ἐνάμιλλον. Cf. 379 B. to the principle that rivals these as conducing to the virtue of state?

4.433

By all means.

4.433

Consider it in this wise tooSo Phaedo 79 E ὅρα δὴ καὶ τῇδε. It introduces a further confirmation. The mere judicial and conventional conception of justice can be brought under the formula in a fashion (πῃ), for legal justice est constans et perpetua voluntas ius suum cuique tribuens. Cf. 331 E and Aristotle Rhet. 1366 b 9 ἔστι δὲ δικαιοσύνη μὲν ἀρετὴ δι’ ἣν τὰ αὑτῶν ἕκαστα ἔχουσι, καὶ ὡς ὁ νόμος. if so you will be convinced. Will you not assign the conduct of lawsuits in your state to the rulers?

4.433

Of course.

4.433

Will not this be the chief aim of their decisions, that no one shall have what belongs to othersτἀλλότρια: the article is normal; Stallb. on Phaedrus 230 A. For the ambiguity of τἀλλότρια cf. 443 D. So οἰκείου is one’s own in either literal or the ideal sense of the Stoics and Emerson, and ἑαυτοῦ is similarly ambiguous. Cf. on 443 D. or be deprived of his own? Nothing else but this.

4.433

On the assumption that this is just?

4.433

Yes.

4.434

From this point of view too, then, the havingἕξις is still fluid in Plato and has not yet taken the technical Aristotelian meaning of habit or state. and doing of one’s own and what belongs to oneself would admittedly be justice.

4.434

That is so.

4.434

Consider nowA further confirmation. For what follows cf. 421 A. whether you agree with me. A carpenter undertaking to do the work of a cobbler or a cobbler of a carpenter or their interchange of one another’s tools or honors or even the attempt of the same man to do both—the confounding of all other functions would not, think you, greatly injure a state, would it?

4.434

Not much,

4.434

he said.

4.434

But when I fancy one who is by nature an artisan or some kind of money-maker tempted and incited by wealth or command of votes or bodily strength or some similar advantage tries to enter into the class of the soldiers or one of the soldiers into the class of counsellors and guardians, for which he is not fitted, and these interchange their tools and their honors or when the same man undertakes all these functions at once, then, I take it, you too believe that this kind of substitution and meddlesomeness is the ruin of a state.

4.434

By all means.

4.434

The interference with one another’s business, then, of three existent classes and the substitution of the one for the other is the greatest injury to a state and would most rightly be designated as the thing which chieflyμάλιστα with κακουργία. works it harm.

4.434

Precisely so.

4.434

And the thing that works the greatest harm to one’s own state, will you not pronounce to be injustice?

4.434

Of course.

4.434

This, then, is injustice.

4.434

Again,πάλιν, again, here means conversely. Cf. 425 A. The definition is repeated in terms of the three citizen classes to prepare the way for testing it in relation to the individual soul, which, if the analogy is to hold, must possess three corresponding faculties or parts. The order of words in this and many Platonic sentences is justified by the psychological investigation, which showed that when the question which do you like best, apples, pears, or cherries? was presented in the form apples, pears, cherries, which do you like best? the reaction time was appreciably shortened. let us put it in this way. The proper functioning οἰκειοπραγία: this coinage is explained by the genitive absolute. Proclus (Kroll i. p. 207) substitutes αὐτοπραγία. So Def. Plat. 411 E. of the money-making class, the helpers and the guardians, each doing its own work in the state, being the reverse of thatἐκείνου: cf. ἐκείνοις, 425 A. just described, would be justice and would render the city just.

4.434

I think the case is thus and no otherwise,

4.434

said he.

4.434

Let us not yet affirm it quite fixedly,παγίως: cf. 479 C, Aristotle Met. 1062 b 15.

4.434

I said,

4.434

but if this formThe doctrine of the transcendental ideas was undoubtedly familiar to Plato at this time. Cf. on 402 B, and Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 31, n. 194, p. 35. But we need not evoke the theory of παρουσία here to account for this slight personification of the form, idea, or definition of justice. Cf. 538 D, and the use of ἐλθών in Euripides Suppl. 562 and of ἰόν in Philebus 52 E. Plato, in short, is merely saying vivaciously what Aristotle technically says in the words δεῖ δὲ τοῦτο μὴ μόνον καθόλου λέγεσθαι, ἀλλὰ καὶ τοῖς καθ’ ἕκαστα ἐφαρμόττειν, Eth. Nic. 1107 a 28. when applied to the individual man, accepted there also as a definition of justice, we will then concede the point—for what else will there be to say? But if not, then we will look for something else. But now let us work out the inquiry in whichIn 368 E. For the loose internal accusative ἥν cf. 443 B, Laws 666 B, Phaedrus 249 D, Sophist 264 B, my paper on Illogical Idiom, T.A.P.A., 1916, vol. xlvii. p. 213, and the school-girl’s This is the play that the reward is offered for the best name suggested for it. we supposed that, if we found some larger thing that contained justice and viewed it there,ἐκεῖ though redundant need not offend in this intentionally ancoluthic and resumptive sentence. Some inferior Mss. read ἐκεῖνο. Burnet’s ἢ is impossible. we should more easily discover its nature in the individual man. And we agreed that this larger thing is the city, and so we constructed the best city in our power, well knowing that in the goodἔν γε τῇ ἀγαθῇ: cf. on 427 E, and for the force of γε cf. 379 B, 403 E. city it would of course be found. What, then, we thought we saw there we must refer back to the individual and, if it is confirmed, all will be well.

4.435

But if something different manifests itself in the individual, we will return again to the state and test it there and it may be that, by examining them side by sideCf. Sophist 230 B τιθέασι παρ’ ἀλλήλας, Isocrates Areopagiticus 79, Nic. 17. and rubbing them against one another, as it were from the fire-sticksCf. L and S. and Morgan, De Ignis Eliciendi Modis, Harvard Studies, vol. i. pp. 15, 21 ff. and 30; and Damascius (Ruelle, p. 54, line 18) καὶ τοῦτό ἐστιν ὅπερ εξαίφνης ἀνάπτεται φῶς ἀληθείας ὥσπερ ἐκ πυρείων προστριβομένων. we may cause the spark of justice to flash forth,Cf. Gorgias 484 B, Epistle vii. 344 B. and when it is thus revealed confirm it in our own minds.

4.435

Well,

4.435

he said,

4.435

that seems a sound method Plato often observes that a certain procedure is methodical and we must follow it, or that it is at least methodical or consistent, whatever the results may be. and that is what we must do.

4.435

Then,

4.435

said I,

4.435

if you call a thing by the sameὅ γε ταὐτόν: there are several reasons for the seeming over-elaboration of the logic in the next few pages. The analogy between the three classes in the state and the tripartite soul is an important point in Plato’s ethical theory and an essential feature in the structure of the Republic. Very nice distinctions are involved in the attempt to prove the validity of the analogy for the present argument without too flagrant contradiction of the faith elsewhere expressed in the essential unity of the soul. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 42. These distinctions in the infancy of logic Plato is obliged to set forth and explain as he proceeds. Moreover, he is interested in logical method for its own sake (cf.. Introduction p. xiv), and is here stating for the first time important principles of logic afterwards codified in the treatises of Aristotle. γε marks the inference from the very meaning of ταὐτόν. Cf. on 379 B, 389 B, and Politicus 278 E; cf. also Parmenides 139 E. The language suggests the theory of ideas. But Plato is not now thinking primarily of that. He is merely repeating in precise logical form the point already made (434 D-E), that the definition of justice in the individual must correspond point for point with that worked out for the state. name whether it is big or little, is it unlike in the way in which it is called the same or like?

4.435

Like,

4.435

he said.

4.435

Then a just man too will not differCf. 369 A and Meno 72 B. In Philebus 12 E-13 C, Plato points out that the generic or specific identity does not exclude specific or sub-specific differences. at all from a just city in respect of the very form of justice, but will be like it.

4.435

Yes, like.

4.435

But now the city was thought to be just because three natural kinds existing in it performed each its own function, and again it was sober, brave, and wise because of certain other affections and habitsἕξεις is here almost the Aristotelian ἕξις. Aristotle, Eth. Nic. 1105 b 20, regards πάθη, ἕξεις and δυνάμεις as an exhaustive enumeration of mental states. For δυνάμεις cf. 477 C, Simplic. De An. Hayduck, p. 289 ἀλλὰ τὰ ὧν πρὸς πρακτικὴν ἐδεῖτο ζωήν, τὰ τρία μόνα παρείληφεν. of these three kinds.

4.435

True,

4.435

he said.

4.435

Then, my friend, we shall thus expect the individual also to have these same forms in his soul, and by reason of identical affections of these with those in the city to receive properly the same appellations.

4.435

Inevitable,

4.435

he said.

4.435

Goodness gracious,

4.435

said I,

4.435

here is another triflingCf. 423 C. inquiry into which we have plunged, the question whether the soul really contains these three forms in itself or not.

4.435

It does not seem to me at all trifling,

4.435

he said,

4.435

for perhaps, Socrates, the saying is true that ’fine things are difficult.’A proverb often cited by Plato with variations. Cf. 497 D-E.

4.435

Apparently,

4.435

said I;

4.435

and let me tell you, Glaucon, that in my opinion we shall never in the world apprehend this matterτοῦτο by strict grammatical implication means the problem of the tripartite soul, but the reference to this passage in 504 B shows that it includes the whole question of the definition of the virtues, and so ultimately the whole of ethical and political philosophy. We are there told again that the definitions of the fourth book are sufficient for the purpose, but that complete insight can be attained only by relating them to the idea of the good. That required a longer and more circuitous way of discipline and training. Plato then does not propose the longer way as a method of reasoning which he himself employs to correct the approximations of the present discussion. He merely describes it as the higher education which will enable his philosophical rulers to do that. We may then disregard all idle guesses about a new logic hinted at in the longer way, and all fantastic hypotheses about the evolution of Plato’s thought and the composition of the Republic based on supposed contradictions between this passage and the later books. Cf. Introduction p. xvi, Idea of Good, p. 190, Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 16, n. 90; followed by Professor Wilamowitz, ii. p. 218, who, however, does not understand the connection of it all with the idea of good. Plato the logician never commits himself to more than is required by the problem under discussion (cf. on 353 c), and Plato the moralist never admits that the ideal has been adequately expressed, but always points to heights beyond. Cf. 506 E, 533 A, Phaedo 85 C, Ti. 29 B-C, Soph. 254 C. from such methods as we are now employing in discussion. For there is another longer and harder way that conducts to this. Yet we may perhaps discuss it on the level of previous statements and inquiries.

4.435

May we acquiesce in that?

4.435

he said.

4.435

I for my part should be quite satisfied with that for the present.

4.435

And I surely should be more than satisfied,

4.435

I replied.

4.435

Don’t you weary then,

4.435

he said,

4.435

but go on with the inquiry.

4.435

Is it not, then,

4.435

said I,

4.435

impossible for us to avoid admittingPlato takes for granted as obvious the general correspondence which some modern philosophers think it necessary to reaffirm. Cf. Mill, Logic, vi. 7. 1 Human beings in society have no properties, but those which are derived from and may be resolved into the laws and the nature of individual man; Spencer, Autobiog. ii. p. 543 Society is created by its units. . . . The nature of its organization is determined by the nature of its units. Plato illustrates the commonplace in a slight digression on national characteristics, with a hint of the thought partially anticipated by Hippocrates and now identified with Buckle’s name, that they are determined by climate and environment. Cf. Newman, Introduction to Aristotle Politics pp. 318-320. this much, that the same forms and qualities are to be found in each one of us that are in the state? They could not get there from any other source.

4.436

It would be absurd to suppose that the element of high spirit was not derived in states from the private citizens who are reputed to have this quality as the populations of the Thracian and Scythian lands and generally of northern regions; or the quality of love of knowledge, which would chiefly be attributed toαἰτιάσαιτο: this merely varies the idiom αἰτίαν ἔχειν, predicate of, say of. Cf. 599 E. It was a common boast of the Athenians that the fine air of Athens produced a corresponding subtlety of wit. Cf. Euripides Medea 829-830, Isocrates vii. 74, Roberts, The Ancient Boeotians, pp. 59, 76. the region where we dwell, or the love of moneyφιλοχρήματον is a virtual synonym of ἐπιθυμητικόν. Cf. 580 E and Phaedo 68 C, 82 C. which we might say is not least likely to be found in PhoeniciansIn Laws 747 C, Plato tells that for this or some other cause the mathematical education of the Phoenicians and Egyptians, which he commends, developed in them πανουργία rather than σοφία. and the population of Egypt.

4.436

One certainly might,

4.436

he replied.

4.436

This is the fact then,

4.436

said I,

4.436

and there is no difficulty in recognizing it.

4.436

Certainly not.

4.436

But the matter begins to be difficult when you ask whether we do all these things with the same thing or whether there are three things and we do one thing with one and one with another—learn with one part of ourselves, feel anger with another, and with yet a third desire the pleasures of nutrition and generation and their kind, or whether it is with the entire soulThe questions debated by psychologists from Aristotle (Eth. Nic. 1102 a 31) to the present day is still a matter of rhetoric, poetry, and point of view rather than of strict science. For some purposes we must treat the faculties of the mind as distinct entities, for others we must revert to the essential unity of the soul. Cf. Arnold’s Lines on Butler’s Sermons and my remarks in The Assault on Humanism. Plato himself is well aware of this, and in different dialogues emphasizes the aspect that suits his purpose. There is no contradiction between this passage and Phaedo 68 C, 82 C, and Republic x. 611-12. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, pp. 42-43. that we function in each case when we once begin. That is what is really hard to determine properly.

4.436

I think so too,

4.436

he said.

4.436

Let us then attempt to define the boundary and decide whether they are identical with one another in this way.

4.436

How?

4.436

It is obvious that the same thing will never do or suffer oppositesThe first formulation of the law of contradiction. Cf. Phaedo 102 E, Theaetetus 188 A, Soph. 220 B, 602 E. Sophistical objections are anticipated here and below (436 E) by attaching to it nearly all the qualifying distinctions of the categories which Aristotle wearily observes are necessary πρὸς τὰς σοφιστικὰς ἐνοχλήσεις (De interp. 17 a 36-37). Cf. Met. 1005 b 22 πρὸς τὰς λογικὰς δυσχερείας, and Rhet. ii. 24. Plato invokes the principle against Heraclitism and other philosophies of relativity and the sophistries that grew out of them or played with their formulas. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, pp. 50 ff., 53, 58, 68. Aristotle follows Plato in this, pronouncing it πασῶν βεβαιοτάτη ἀρχή (Met. 1005 b 18). in the same respectκατὰ ταὐτόν = in the same part or aspect of itself; πρὸς ταὐτόν = in relation to the same (other) thing. Cf. Sophist 230 B ἅμα περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν πρὸς τὰ αὐτὰ κατὰ ταὐτὰ ἐναντίας. in relation to the same thing and at the same time. So that if ever we findFor this method of reasoning cf. 478 D, 609 B, Laws 896 C, Charmides 168 B-C, Gorgias 496 C, Philebus 11 D-E. these contradictions in the functions of the mind we shall know that it wasἦν = was all along and is. not the same thing functioning but a plurality.

4.436

Very well.

4.436

Consider, then, what I am saying.

4.436

Say on,

4.436

he replied.

4.436

Is it possible for the same thing at the same time in the same respect to be at restThe maxim is applied to the antithesis of rest and motion, so prominent in the dialectics of the day. Cf. Sophist 249 C-D, Parmenides 156 D and passim. and in motion?

4.436

By no means.

4.436

Let us have our understanding still more precise, lest as we proceed we become involved in dispute. If anyone should say of a man standing still but moving his hands and head that the same man is at the same time at rest and in motion we should not, I take it, regard that as the right way of expressing it, but rather that a partCf. Theaetetus 181 E. of him is at rest and a part in motion. Is not that so?

4.436

It is.

4.436

Then if the disputant should carry the jest still further with the subtlety that tops at any rateThe argumentative γε is controversial. For the illustration of the top cf. Spencer, First Principle, 170, who analyzes certain oscillations described by the expressive though inelegant word wobbling and their final dissipation when the top appears stationary in the equilibrium mobile. stand still as a whole at the same time that they are in motion when with the peg fixed in one point they revolve, and that the same is true of any other case of circular motion about the same spot—we should reject the statement on the ground that the repose and the movement in such casesThe meaning is plain, the alleged rest and motion do not relate to the same parts of the objects. But the syntax of τὰ τοιαῦτα is difficult. Obvious remedies are to expunge the words or to read τῶν τοιούτων, the cacophony of which in the context Plato perhaps rejected at the cost of leaving his syntax to our conjectures. were not in relation to the same parts of the objects, but we would say that there was a straight line and a circumference in them and that in respect of the straight line they are standing stillCf. Aristotle Met. 1022 a 23 ἔτι δὲ τὸ καθὸ τὸ κατὰ θέσιν λέγεται, καθὸ ἕστηκεν, etc, since they do not incline to either side, but in respect of the circumference they move in a circle; but that when as they revolve they incline the perpendicular to right or left or forward or back, then they are in no wise at rest.

4.436

And that would be right,

4.436

he said.

4.437

No such remarks then will disconcert us or any whit the more make us believe that it is ever possible for the same thing at the same time in the same respect and the same relation to suffer, be,εἴη, the reading of most Mss., should stand. It covers the case of contradictory predicates, especially of relation, that do not readily fall under the dichotomy ποιεῖν πάσχειν. So Phaedo 97 C ἢ εἶναι ἢ ἄλλο ὁτιοῦν πάσχειν ἢ ποιεῖν. or do opposites.

4.437

They will not me, I am sure,

4.437

said he.

4.437

All the same,

4.437

said I,

4.437

that we may not be forced to examine at tedious length the entire list of such contentionsἀμφισβητήσεις is slightly contemptuous. Cf. Aristotle , ἐνοχλήσεις, and Theaetetus 158 C τό γε ἀμφισβητῆσαι οὐ χαλεπόν. and convince ourselves that they are false, let us proceed on the hypothesisIt is almost a Platonic method thus to emphasize the dependence of one conclusion on another already accepted. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, n. 471, Politicus 284 D, Phaedo 77 A, 92 D, Timaeus 51 D, Parmenides 149 A. It may be used to cut short discussion (Unity of Plato’s Thought, n. 471) or divert it into another channel. Here, however, he is aware, as Aristotle is, that the maximum of contradiction can be proved only controversially against an adversary who says something. (cf. my De Platonis Idearum Doctrina, pp. 7-9, Aristotle Met. 1012 b 1-10); and so, having sufficiently guarded his meaning, he dismisses the subject with the ironical observation that, if the maxim is ever proved false, he will give up all that he bases on the hypothesis of its truth. Cf. Sophist 247 E. that this is so, with the understanding that, if it ever appear otherwise, everything that results from the assumption shall be invalidated.

4.437

That is what we must do,

4.437

he said.

4.437

Will you not then,

4.437

said I,

4.437

set down as opposed to one another assent and dissent, and the endeavor after a thing to the rejection of it, and embracing to repelling—do not these and all things like these belong to the class of opposite actions or passions; it will make no difference which?Cf. Gorgias 496 E, and on 435 D.

4.437

None,

4.437

said he,

4.437

but they are opposites.

4.437

What then,

4.437

said I,

4.437

of thirst and hunger and the appetites generally, and again consentingἐθέλειν in Plato normally means to be willing, and βούλεσθαι to wish or desire. But unlike Prodicus, Plato emphasizes distinctions of synonyms only when relevant to his purpose. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 47 and n. 339, Philebus 60 D. προσάγεσθαι below relates to ἐπιθυμία and ἐπινεύειν to ἐθέλειν . . . βούλεσθαι. and willing, would you not put them all somewhere in the classes just described? Will you not say, for example, that the soul of one who desires either strives for that which he desires or draws towards its embrace what it wishes to accrue to it; or again, in so far as it wills that anything be presented to it, nods assent to itself thereon as if someone put the question,Cf. Aristotle De anima 434 a 9. The Platonic doctrine that opinion,δόξα, is discussion of the soul with herself, or the judgement in which such discussion terminates (Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 47) is here applied to the specific case of the practical reason issuing in an affirmation of the will. striving towards its attainment?

4.437

I would say so,

4.437

he said.

4.437

But what of not-willingἀβουλεῖν recalls the French coinage nolonté, and the southern mule’s won’t-power. Cf. Epistle vii. 347 A, Demosthenes Epistle ii. 17. and not consenting nor yet desiring, shall we not put these under the soul’s rejectionCf. Aristotle’s ἀνθέλκειν, De anima 433 b 8. All willing is either pushing or pulling, Jastrow, Fact and Fable in Psychology, p. 336. Cf. the argument in Spencer’s First Principles 80, that the phrase impelled by desires is not a metaphor but a physical fact. Plato’s generalization of the concepts attraction and repulsion brings about a curious coincidence with the language of a materialistic, physiological psychology (cf. Lange, History of Materialism, passim), just as his rejection in the Timaeus of attraction and actio in distans allies his physics with that of the most consistent materialists. and repulsion from itself and generally into the opposite class from all the former?

4.437

Of course.

4.437

This being so, shall we say that the desires constitute a classCf. on 349 E. and that the most conspicuous members of that classCf. 412 B and Class. Phil. vii. (1912) pp. 485-486. are what we call thirst and hunger?

4.437

We shall,

4.437

said he.

4.437

Is not the one desire of drink, the other of food?

4.437

Yes.

4.437

Then in so far as it is thirst, would it be of anything more than that of which we say it is a desire in the soul?The argument might proceed with 439 A τοῦ διψῶντος ἄρα ἡ ψυχή. All that intervenes is a digression on logic, a caveat against possible misunderstandings of the proposition that thirst qua thirst is a desire for drink only and unqualifiedly. We are especially warned (438 A) against the misconception that since all men desire the good, thirst must be a desire not for mere drink but for good drink. Cf. the dramatic correction of a misconception, Phaedo 79 B, 529 A-B. I mean is thirst thirst for hot drink or cold or much or little or in a word for a draught of any particular quality, or is it the fact that if heatIn the terminology of the doctrine of ideas the presence of cold is the cause of cool, and that of heat, of hot. Cf. The Origin of the Syllogism, Class. Phil . vol. xix. p. 10. But in the concrete instance heat causes the desire of cool and vice versa. Cf. Philebus 35 A ἐπιθυμεῖ τῶν ἐναντίων ἢ πάσχει. If we assume that Plato is here speaking from the point of view of common sense (Cf. Lysis 215 E τὸ δὲ ψυχρὸν θερμοῦ), there is no need of Hermann’s transposition of ψυχροῦ and θερμοῦ, even though we do thereby get a more exact symmetry with πλήθους παρουσίαν . . . τοῦ πολλοῦ below. is attachedπροσῇ denotes that the presence is an addition. Cf. προσείη in Parmenides 149 E. to the thirst it would further render the desire—a desire of cold, and if cold of hot? But if owing to the presence of muchness the thirst is much it would render it a thirst for much and if little for little. But mere thirst will never be desire of anything else than that of which it is its nature to be, mere drink,Philebus 35 A adds a refinement not needed here, that thirst is, strictly speaking, a desire for repletion by drink. and so hunger of food.

4.437

That is so,

4.437

he said;

4.437

each desire in itself is of that thing only of which it is its nature to be. The epithets belong to the quality—such or such.Cf. 429 B. But (the desires) of such or such a (specific) drink are (due to) that added qualification (of the thirst).

4.438

Let no one then,

4.438

1

4.438

said I,

4.438

disconcert us when off our guard with the objection that everybody desires not drink but good drink and not food but good food, because (the argument will runἄρα marks the rejection of this reasoning. Cf 358 C, 364 E, 381 E, 499 C. Plato of course is not repudiating his doctrine that all men really will the good, but the logic of this passage requires us to treat the desire of good as a distinct qualification of the mere drink.) all men desire good, and so, if thirst is desire, it would be of good drink or of good whatsoever it is; and so similarly of other desires.

4.438

Why,

4.438

he said,

4.438

there perhaps would seem to be something in that objection.

4.438

But I need hardly remind you,

4.438

said I,

4.438

that of relative terms those that are somehow qualified are related to a qualified correlate, those that are severally just themselves to a correlate that is just itself.ὅσα γ’ ἐστὶ τοιαῦτα etc.: a palmary example of the concrete simplicity of Greek idiom in the expression of abstract ideas. ὅσα etc. (that is, relative terms) divide by partitive apposition into two classes, τὰ μὲν . . . τὰ δέ. The meaning is that if one term of the relation is qualified, the other must be, but if one term is without qualification, the other is also taken absolutely. Plato, as usual (Cf. on 347 B), represents the interlocutor as not understandiong the first general abstract statement, which he therefore interprets and repeats. I have varied the translation in the repetition in order to bring out the full meaning, and some of the differences between Greek and English idiom.

4.438

I don’t understand,

4.438

he said.

4.438

Don’t you understand,

4.438

said I,

4.438

that the greaterThe notion of relative terms is familiar. Cf. Charmides 167 E, Theaetetus 160 A, Symposium 199 D-E, Parmenides 133 C ff., Sophist 255 D, Aristotle Topics vi. 4, and Cat. v. It is expounded here only to insure the apprehension of the further point that the qualifications of either term of the relation are relative to each other. In the Politicus 283 f. Plato adds that the great and small are measured not only in relation to each other, but by absolute standards. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, pp. 61, 62, and 531 A. is such as to be greater than something?

4.438

Certainly.

4.438

Is it not than the less?

4.438

Yes.

4.438

But the much greater than the much less. Is that not so?

4.438

Yes.

4.438

And may we add the one time greater than the one time less and that which will be greater than that which will be less?

4.438

Surely.

4.438

And similarly of the more towards the fewer, and the double towards the half and of all like cases, and again of the heavier towards the lighter, the swifter towards the slower, and yet again of the hot towards the cold and all cases of that kind,καὶ . . . καὶ αὖ . . . καὶ ἔτι γε etc. mark different classes of relations, magnitudes, precise quantites, the mechanical properties of matter and the physical properties. does not the same hold?

4.438

By all means.

4.438

But what of the sciences? Is not the way of it the same? Science which is just that, is of knowledge which is just that, or is of whatsoeverPlato does not wish to complicate his logic with metaphysics. The objective correlate of ἐπιστήμη is a difficult problem. In the highest sense it is the ideas. Cf. Parmenides 134 A.But the relativity of ἐπιστήμη (Aristotle Topics iv. 1. 5) leads to psychological difficulties in Charmides 168 and to theological in Parmenides 134 C-E, which are waived by this phrase. Sceince in the abstract is of knowledge in the abstract, architectural science is of the specific knowledge called architecture. Cf. Sophist 257 C. we must assume the correlate of science to be. But a particular science of a particular kind is of some particular thing of a particular kind. I mean something like this: As there was a science of making a house it differed from other sciences so as to be named architecture.

4.438

Certainly.

4.438

Was not this by reason of its being of a certain kindCf. Philebus 37 C. such as no other of all the rest?

4.438

Yes.

4.438

And was it not because it was of something of a certain kind that it itself became a certain kind of science? And similarly of the other arts and sciences?

4.438

That is so.

4.438

This then,

4.438

said I,

4.438

if haply you now understand, is what you must say I then meant, by the statement that of all things that are such as to be of something those that are just themselves only are of things just themselves only, but things of a certain kind are of things of a kind. And I don’t at all meanCf. Cratylus 393 B, Phaedo 81 D, and for the thought Aristotle Met. 1030 b 2 ff. The added determinants need not be the same. The study of useful things is not necessarily a useful study, as opponents of the Classics argue. In Gorgias 476 B this principle is violated by the wilful fallacy that if to do justice is fine, so must it be to suffer justice, but the motive for this is explained in Laws 859-860. that they are of the same kind as the things of which they are, so that we are to suppose that the science of health and disease is a healthy and diseased science and that of evil and good, evil and good. I only mean that as science became the science not of just the thingαὐτοῦ οὗπερ ἐπιστήμη ἐστίν is here a mere periphrasis for μαθήματος, αὐτοῦ expressing the idea abstract, mere, absolute, or per se, but ὅπερ or ἥπερ ἐστίν is often a synonym of αὐτός or αὐτή in the sense of abstract, absolute, or ideal. Cf. Thompson on Meno 71 B, Sophist 255 D τοῦτο ὅπερ ἐστὶν εἶναι. of which science is but of some particular kind of thing, namely, of health and disease, the resultδή marks the application of this digression on relativity, for δῖψος is itself a relative term and is what it is in relation to something else, namely drink. was that it itself became some kind of science and this caused it to be no longer called simply science but with the addition of the particular kind, medical science.

4.438

I understand,

4.438

he said,

4.438

and agree that it is so.

4.439

To return to thirst, then,

4.439

said I,

4.439

will you not class it with the things

4.439

1

4.439

that are of something and say that it is what it is

4.439

2

4.439

in relation to something—and it is, I presume, thirst?

4.439

I will,

4.439

said he,

4.439

—namely of drink.

4.439

Then if the drink is of a certain kind, so is the thirst, but thirst that is just thirst is neither of much nor little nor good nor bad, nor in a word of any kind, but just thirst is naturally of just drink only.

4.439

By all means.

4.439

The soul of the thirsty then, in so far as it thirsts, wishes nothing else than to drink, and yearns for this and its impulse is towards this.

4.439

Obviously.

4.439

Then if anything draws it backCf. on 437 C, Aristotle, De anima 433 b 8, Laws 644 E, 604 B, Phaedrus 238 C. The practical moral truth of this is independent of our metaphysical psychology. Plato means that the something which made King David refuse the draught purchased by the blood of his soldiers and Sir Philip Sidney pass the cup to a wounded comrade is somehow different than the animal instinct which it overpowers. Cf. Aristotle Eth. Nic. 1102 b 24, Laws 863 E. when thirsty it must be something different in it from that which thirsts and drives it like a beastCf. 589, Epistle 335 B. Cf. Descartes, Les Passions de l’âme, article xlvii: En quoi consistent les combats qu’on a coutume d’imaginer entre la partie inférieure et la supérieure de l’âme. He says in effect that the soul is a unit and the lower soul is the body. Cf. ibid. lxviii, where he rejects the concupiscible and the irascible. to drink. For it cannot be, we say, that the same thing with the same part of itself at the same time acts in opposite ways about the same thing.

4.439

We must admit that it does not.

4.439

So I fancy it is not well said of the archer

4.439

5

4.439

that his hands at the same time thrust away the bow and draw it nigh, but we should rather say that there is one hand that puts it away and another that draws it to.

4.439

By all means,

4.439

he said.

4.439

Are we to say, then, that some men sometimes though thirsty refuse to drink?

4.439

We are indeed,

4.439

he said,

4.439

many and often.

4.439

What then,

4.439

said I,

4.439

should one affirm about them?

4.439

Is it not that there isἐνεῖναι μὲν . . . ἐνεῖναι δέ: the slight artificiality of the anaphora matches well with the Gorgian jingle κελεῦον . . . κωλῦον. Cf. Iambl. Protrept. p. 41 Postelli ἔστι γὰρ τοιοῦτον ὃ κελεύει καὶ κωλύει. something in the soul that bids them drink and a something that forbids, a different something that masters that which bids?

4.439

I think so.

4.439

And is it not the fact that that which inhibits such actions arises when it arises from the calculations of reason, but the impulses which draw and drag come through affectionsThe pulls are distinguished verbally from the passions that are their instruments. νοσημάτων suggests the Stoic doctrine that passions are diseases. Cf. Cicero Tusc. iii. 4 perturbationes, and passim, and Philebus 45 C. and diseases?

4.439

Apparently.

4.439

Not unreasonably,

4.439

said I,

4.439

shall we claim that they are two and different from one another, naming that in the soul whereby it reckons and reasons the rationalλογιστικόν is one of Plato’s many synonyms for the intellectual principle. Cf. 441 C, 571 C, 587 D, 605 B. It emphasizes the moral calculation of consequences, as opposed to blind passion. Cf. Crito 46 B (one of the passages which the Christian apologists used to prove that Socrates knew the λόγος), Theaetetus 186 C ἀναλογίσματα πρός τε οὐσίαν καὶ ὠφέλειαν, and Laws 644 D. Aristotle Eth. 1139 a 12 somewhat differently. and that with which it loves, hungers, thirsts, and feels the flutterἐπτόηται: almost technical, as in Sappho’s ode, for the flutter of desire. ἀλόγιστον, though applied here to the ἐπιθυμητικόν only, suggests the bipartite division of Aristotle, Eth. Nic. 1102 a 28. and titillation of other desires, the irrational and appetitive—companionSo the bad steed which symbolizes the ἐπιθυμητικόν in Phaedrus 253 E is ἀλαζονείας ἑταῖρος. of various repletions and pleasures.

4.439

It would not be unreasonable but quite natural,

4.439

he said,

4.439

for us to think this.

4.439

These two forms, then, let us assume to have been marked off as actually existing in the soul. But now the ThumosWe now approach the distinctively Platonic sense of θυμός as the power of noble wrath, which, unless perverted by a bad education, is naturally the ally of the reason, though as mere angry passion it might seem to belong to the irrational part of the soul, and so, as Glaucon suggets, be akin to appetite, with which it is associated in the mortal soul of the Timaeus 69 D. In Laws 731 B-C Plato tells us again that the soul cannot combat injustice without the capacity for righteous indignation. The Stoics affected to deprecate anger always, and the difference remained a theme of controversy between them and the Platonists. Cf. Schmidt, Ethik der Griechen, ii. pp. 321 ff., Seneca, De ira, i. 9, and passim. Moralists are still divided on the point. Cf. Bagehot, Lord Brougham: Another faculty of Brougham . . . is the faculty of easy anger. The supine placidity of civilization is not favorable to animosity [Bacon’s word for θυμός]. Leslie Stephen, Science of Ethics, pp. 60 ff. and p. 62, seems to contradict Plato: The supposed conflict between reason and passion is, as I hold, meaningless if it is taken to imply that the reason is a faculty separate from the emotions, etc. But this is only his metaphysics. On the practical ethical issue he is with Plato. or principle of high spirit, that with which we feel anger, is it a third, or would it be identical in nature with one of these?

4.439

Perhaps,

4.439

he said,

4.439

with one of these, the appetitive.

4.440

But,

4.440

I said,

4.440

I once heard a story

4.440

1

4.440

which I believe, that Leontius the son of Aglaion, on his way up from the Peiraeus under the outer side of the northern wall,

4.440

2

4.440

becoming aware of dead bodies

4.440

3

4.440

that lay at the place of public execution at the same time felt a desire to see them and a repugnance and aversion, and that for a time

4.440

he resisted

4.440

4

4.440

and veiled his head, but overpowered in despite of all by his desire, with wide staring eyes he rushed up to the corpses and cried,

4.440

There, ye wretches,He apostrophizes his eyes, in a different style from Romeo’s, Eyes, look your last. take your fill of the fine spectacle!

4.440

I too,

4.440

he said,

4.440

have heard the story.

4.440

Yet, surely, this anecdote,

4.440

I said,

4.440

signifies that the principle of anger sometimes fights against desires as an alien thing against an alien.

4.440

Yes, it does,

4.440

he said.

4.440

And do we not,

4.440

said I,

4.440

on many other occasions observe when his desires constrain a man contrary to his reason that he reviles himself and is angry with that within which masters him and that as it were in a faction of two parties the high spirit of such a man becomes the ally of his reason? But itsαὐτόν: we shift from the θυμός to the man and back again. making common causeἀντιπράττειν: that is, opposite the reason. It may be construed with δεῖν or as the verb of αὐτόν. There are no real difficulties in the passage, though many have been found. The order of the words and the anacoluthon are intentional and effective. Cf. on 434 C. οὐκ ἂν . . . ποτέ is to literal understanding an exaggeration. But Plato is speaking of the normal action of uncorrupted θυμός. Plato would not accept the psychology of Euripides’ Medea (1079-1080): καὶ μανθάνω μὲν οἷα δρᾶν μέλλω κακά, θυμὸς δὲ κρείσσω τῶν ἐμῶν βουλευμάτων. Cf. Dr. Loeb’s translation of Décharme, p. 340. with the desires against the reason when reason whispers lowαἱροῦντος: cf. 604 C, and L. and S. s. v. A. II. 5. Thou must not—that, I think, is a kind of thing you would not affirm ever to have perceived in yourself, nor, I fancy, in anybody else either.

4.440

No, by heaven,

4.440

he said.

4.440

Again, when a man thinks himself to be in the wrong,So Aristotle Rhet. 1380 b 17 οὐ γίγνεται γὰρ ἡ ὀργὴ πρὸς τὸ δίκαιον, and Eth. Nic. 1135 b 28 ἐπὶ φαινομένῃ γὰρ ἀδικίᾳ ἡ ὀργή ἐστιν. This is true only with Plato’s reservation γενναιότερος. The baser type is angry when in the wrong. is it not true that the nobler he is the less is he capable of anger though suffering hunger and coldCf. Demosthenes xv. 10 for the same general idea. and whatsoever else at the hands of him whom he believes to be acting justly therein, and as I sayὃ λέγω: idiomatic, as I was saying. his spirit refuses to be aroused against such a one?

4.440

True,

4.440

he said.

4.440

But what when a man believes himself to be wronged, does not his spirit in that caseἐν τούτῳ: possibly in such an one, preferably in such a case.θυμός is plainly the subject of ζεῖ. (Cf. the physiological definition in Aristotle De anima 403 a 31 ζέσιν τοῦ περὶ τὴν καρδίαν αἵματος), and so, strictly speaking, of all the other verbs down to λήγει. καὶ διὰ τὸ πεινῆν . . . πάσχειν is best taken as a parenthesis giving an additional reason for the anger, besides the sense of injustice. seethe and grow fierce (and also because of his suffering hunger, cold and the like) and make itself the ally of what he judges just, and in noble soulsτῶν γενναίων: i.e. the θυμός of the noble, repeating ὅσῳ ἂν γενναιότερος ᾖ above. The interpretation does not desist from his noble (acts) destroys this symmetry and has no warrant in Plato’s use of γενναῖος. Cf. 375 E, 459 A. The only argument against the view here taken is that θυμός is not the subject of λήγει, which it plainly is. The shift from θυμός to the man in what follows is no difficulty and is required only by τελευτήσῃ, which may well be a gloss. Cf. A.J.P. xvi. p. 237. it endures and wins the victory and will not let go until either it achieves its purpose, or death ends all, or, as a dog is called back by a shepherd, it is called back by the reason within and calmed.

4.440

Your similitude is perfect,

4.440

he said,

4.440

and it confirms καίτοι γε calls attention to the confirmation supplied by the image. Cf on 376 B, and my article in Class. Journ. vol. iii. p. 29. our former statements that the helpers are as it were dogs subject to the rulers who are as it were the shepherds of the city.

4.440

You apprehend my meaning excellently,

4.440

said I.

4.440

But do you also take note of this?

4.440

Of what?

4.440

That what we now think about the spirited element is just the opposite of our recent surmise. For then we supposed it to be a part of the appetitive, but now, far from that, we say that, in the factionsCf. 440 B and Phaedrus 237 E. of the soul, it much rather marshals itself on the side of the reason.

4.440

By all means,

4.440

he said.

4.441

Is it then distinct from this too, or is it a form of the rational, so that there are not three but two kinds in the soul, the rational and the appetitive, or just as in the city there were three existing kinds that composed its structure, the moneymakers, the helpers, the counsellors, so also in the soul there exists a third kind, this principle of high spirit, which is the helper of reason by nature unless it is corrupted by evil nurture?

4.441

We have to assume it as a third,

4.441

he said.

4.441

Yes,

4.441

said I,

4.441

providedIt still remains to distinguish the λογιστικόν from θυμός, which is done first by pointing out that young children and animals possess θυμός (Cf. Laws 963 E, Aristotle Politics 1334 b 22 ff.), and by quoting a line of Homer already cited in 390 D, and used in Phaedo 94 E, to prove that the soul, regarded there as a unit, is distinct from the passions, there treated as belonging to the body, like the mortal soul of the Timaeus. See Unity of Plato’s Thought, pp. 42-43. it shall have been shown to be something different from the rational, as it has been shown to be other than the appetitive.

4.441

That is not hard to be shown,

4.441

he said;

4.441

for that much one can see in children, that they are from their very birth chock-full of rage and high spirit, but as for reason, some of them, to my thinking, never participate in it, and the majority quite late.

4.441

Yes, by heaven, excellently said,

4.441

I replied;

4.441

and further, one could see in animals that what you say is true. And to these instances we may add the testimony of Homer quoted above:

4.441

He smote his breast and chided thus his heart.

4.441

Hom. Od. 20.17

4.441

For there Homer has clearly represented that in us

4.441

which has reflected about the better and the worse as rebuking that which feels unreasoning anger as if it were a distinct and different thing.

4.441

You are entirely right,

4.441

he said.

4.441

Through these waters, then,

4.441

said I,

4.441

we have with difficulty made our wayCf. Parmenides 137 A, Pindar, Ol. xiii. 114 ἐκνεῦσαι. and we are fairly agreed that the same kinds equal in number are to be found in the state and in the soul of each one of us.

4.441

That is so.

4.441

Then does not the necessity of our former postulate immediately follow, that as and wherebyCf. 435 B. the state was wise so and thereby is the individual wise?

4.441

Surely.

4.441

And so whereby and as the individual is brave, thereby and so is the state brave, and that both should have all the other constituents of virtue in the same wayCf. Meno 73 C, Hippias Major 295 D. A virtual synonym for τῷ αὐτῷ εἶδει, Meno 72 E.?

4.441

Necessarily.

4.441

Just too, then, Glaucon, I presume we shall say a man is in the same way in which a city was just.

4.441

That too is quite inevitable.

4.441

But we surely cannot have forgotten this, that the state was just by reason of each of the three classes found in it fulfilling its own function.

4.441

I don’t think we have forgotten,

4.441

he said.

4.441

We must remember, then, that each of us also in whomὅτου: cf. 431 B οὗ, and 573 D ὧν. the several parts within him perform each their own task—he will be a just man and one who minds his own affair.

4.441

We must indeed remember,

4.441

he said.

4.441

Does it not belong to the rational part to rule, being wise and exercising forethought in behalf of the entire soul, and to the principle of high spirit to be subject to this and its ally?

4.441

Assuredly.

4.442

Then is it not, as we said,Cf. 411 E, 412 A. the blending of music and gymnastics that will render them concordant, intensifying and fostering the one with fair words and teachings and relaxing and soothing and making gentle the other by harmony and rhythm?

4.442

Quite so,

4.442

said he.

4.442

And these two thus reared and having learned and been educated to do their own work in the true sense of the phrase,Cf. on 433 B-E, 443 D, and Charmides 161 B. will preside over the appetitive part which is the massCf. on 431 A-B, Laws 689 A-B. of the soul in each of us and the most insatiate by nature of wealth. They will keep watch upon it, lest, by being filled and infected with the so-called pleasures associated with the bodyStrictly speaking, pleasure is in the mind, not in the body. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, n. 330. καλουμένων implies the doctrine of the Gorgias 493 E, 494 C, Philebus 42 C, Phaedrus 258 E, and 583 B-584 A, that the pleasures of appetite are not pure or real. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, n. 152. Cf. on λεγομένων431 C. and so waxing big and strong, it may not keep toCf. on 426 E, 606 B. its own work but may undertake to enslave and rule over the classes which it is not fittingπροσῆκον: sc. ἐστὶν ἄρχειν. γένει, by affinity, birth or nature. Cf. 444 B. q reads γενῶν. that it should, and so overturnCf. 389 D. the entire life of all.

4.442

By all means,

4.442

he said.

4.442

Would not these two, then, best keep guard against enemies from withoutCf. 415 E. also in behalf of the entire soul and body, the one taking counsel,Cf. Isocrates xii. 138 αὕτη γάρ ἐστιν ἡ βουλευομένη περὶ ἁπάντων. the other giving battle, attending upon the ruler, and by its courage executing the ruler’s designs?

4.442

That is so.

4.442

Brave, too, then, I take it, we call each individual by virtue of this part in him, when, namely, his high spirit preserves in the midst of pains and pleasuresCf. 429 C-D the rule handed down by the reason as to what is or is not to be feared.

4.442

Right,

4.442

he said.

4.442

But wise by that small part thatCf. Goodwin’s Greek Grammar, 1027. ruled in him and handed down these commands, by its possessionἔχον: anacoluthic epexegesis, corresponding to ὅταν . . . διασώζῃ. αὖ probably marks the correspondence. in turn within it of the knowledge of what is beneficial for each and for the whole, the community composed of the three.

4.442

By all means.

4.442

And again, was he not sober by reason of the friendship and concord of these same parts, when, namely, the ruling principle and its two subjects are at one in the belief that the reason ought to rule, and do not raise faction against it?

4.442

The virtue of soberness certainly,

4.442

said he,

4.442

is nothing else than this, whether in a city or an individual.

4.442

But surely, now, a man is just by that which and in the way we have so oftenᾧ πολλάκις: that is, by the principle of τὸ ἑαυτοῦ πράττειν. described.

4.442

That is altogether necessary.

4.442

Well then,

4.442

said I,

4.442

has our idea of justice in any way lost the edgeἀπαμβλύνεται: is the edge or outline of the definition blunted or dimmed when we transfer it to the individual? of its contour so as to look like anything else than precisely what it showed itself to be in the state?

4.442

I think not,

4.442

he said.

4.442

We might,

4.442

I said,

4.442

completely confirm your reply and our own conviction thus, if anything in our minds still disputes our definition—by applying commonplace and vulgarThe transcendental or philosophical definition is confirmed by vulgar tests. The man who is just in Plato’s sense will not steal or betray or fail in ordinary duties. Cf. Aristotle Eth. Nic. 1178 b 16 ἢ φορτικὸς ὁ ἔπαινος. . . to say that the gods are σώφρονες. Similarly Plato feels that there is a certain vulgarity in applying the cheap tests of prudential morality (Cf. Phaedo 68 C-D) to intrinsic virtue. Be this, is the highest expression of the moral law. Do this, eventually follows. Cf. Leslie Stephen, Science of Ethics, pp. 376 and 385, and Emerson, Self-Reliance: But I may also neglect the reflex standard, and absolve me to myself . . . If anyone imagines that this law is lax, let him keep its commandment one day. The Xenophontic Socrates (Xenophon Memorabilia iv. 4. 10-11 and iv. 4. 17) relies on these vulgar tests. tests to it.

4.442

What are these?

4.443

For example, if an answer were demanded to the question concerning that city and the man whose birth and breeding was in harmony with it, whether we believe that such a man, entrusted with a depositCf. on 332 A and Aristotle Rhet. 1383 b 21. of gold or silver, would withhold it and embezzle it, who do you suppose would think that he would be more likely so to act than men of a different kind?

4.443

No one would,

4.443

he said.

4.443

And would not he be far removed from sacrilege and theft and betrayal of comrades in private life or of the state in public?

4.443

He would.

4.443

And, moreover, he would not be in any way faithless either in the keeping of his oaths or in other agreements.

4.443

How could he?

4.443

Adultery, surely, and neglect of parents and of the due service of the gods would pertain to anyone rather than to such a man.

4.443

To anyone indeed,

4.443

he said.

4.443

And is not the cause of this to be found in the fact that each of the principles within him does its own work in the matter of ruling and being ruled?

4.443

Yes, that and nothing else.

4.443

Do you still, then, look for justice to be anything else than this potency which provides men and cities of this sort?

4.443

No, by heaven,

4.443

he said,

4.443

I do not.

4.443

Finished, then, is our dream and perfected —the surmise we spoke of,ὅ: Cf. on 434 D. that, by some Providence, at the very beginning of our foundation of the state, we chanced to hit upon the original principle and a sort of type of justice.

4.443

Most assuredly.

4.443

It really was, it seems, Glaucon, which is why it helps,

4.443

3

4.443

a sort of adumbration of justice, this principle that it is right for the cobbler by nature to cobble and occupy himself with nothing else, and the carpenter to practice carpentry, and similarly all others. But the truth of the matter

4.443

4

4.443

was, as it seems,

4.443

that justice is indeed something of this kind, yet not in regard to the doing of one’s own business externally, but with regard to that which is within and in the true sense concerns one’s self, and the things of one’s self—it means that

4.443

5

4.443

a man must not suffer the principles in his soul to do each the work of some other and interfere and meddle with one another, but that he should dispose well of what in the true sense of the word is properly his own,

4.443

6

4.443

and having first attained to self-mastery

4.443

7

4.443

and beautiful order

4.443

8

4.443

within himself,

4.443

9

4.443

and having harmonized

4.443

10

4.443

these three principles, the notes or intervals of three terms quite literally the lowest, the highest, and the mean,

4.443

and all others there may be between them, and having linked and bound all three together and made of himself a unit,

4.443

11

4.443

one man instead of many, self-controlled and in unison, he should then and then only turn to practice if he find aught to do either in the getting of wealth or the tendance of the body or it may be in political action or private business, in all such doings believing and naming

4.443

12

4.443

the just and honorable action to be that which preserves and helps to produce this condition of soul, and wisdom the science

4.443

that presides over such conduct; and believing and naming the unjust action to be that which ever tends to overthrow this spiritual constitution, and brutish ignorance, to be the opinion

4.443

13

4.443

that in turn presides

4.443

14

4.443

over this.

4.444

What you say is entirely true, Socrates.

4.444

Well,

4.444

said I,

4.444

if we should affirm that we had found the just man and state and what justice really isCf. 337 B. in them, I think we should not be much mistaken.

4.444

No indeed, we should not,

4.444

he said.

4.444

Shall we affirm it, then?

4.444

Let us so affirm.

4.444

So be it, then,

4.444

said I;

4.444

next after this, I take it, we must consider injustice.

4.444

Obviously.

4.444

Must not this be a kind of civil warστάσιν: cf. 440 E. It is defined in Sophist 228 B. Aristotle would again regard this as mere metaphor. of these three principles, their meddlesomenessπολυπραγμοσύνην:434 B and Isocrates viii. 59. and interference with one another’s functions, and the revolt of one part against the whole of the soul that it may hold therein a rule which does not belong to it, since its nature is such that it befits it to serve as a slave to the ruling principle? Something of this sort, I fancy, is what we shall say, and that the confusion of these principles and their straying from their proper course is injustice and licentiousness and cowardice and brutish ignorance and, in general,συλλήβδην: summing up, as in Phaedo 69 B. all turpitude.

4.444

Precisely this,

4.444

he replied.

4.444

Then,

4.444

said I,

4.444

to act unjustly and be unjust and in turn to act justly the meaning of all these terms becomes at once plain and clear, since injustice and justice are so.

4.444

How so?

4.444

Because,

4.444

said I,

4.444

these are in the soul whatὡς ἐκεῖνα: a proportion is thus usually stated in an ancoluthic apposition. the healthful and the diseaseful are in the body; there is no difference.

4.444

In what respect?

4.444

he said.

4.444

Healthful things surely engender healthThe common-sense point of view, fit fabricando faber. Cf. Aristotle Eth. Nic. 1103 a 32. In Gorgias 460 B, Socrates argues the paradox that he who knows justice does it. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 11, n. 42. and diseaseful disease.

4.444

Yes.

4.444

Then does not doing just acts engender justice and unjust injustice?

4.444

Of necessity.

4.444

But to produce health is to establish the elements in a body in the natural relation of dominating and being dominatedCf. the generalization of ἔρως to include medicine and music in Symposium 186-187, and Timaeus 82 A, Laws 906 C, Unity of Plato’s Thought, n. 500. by one another, while to cause disease is to bring it about that one rules or is ruled by the other contrary to nature.

4.444

Yes, that is so.

4.444

And is it not likewise the production of justice in the soul to establish its principles in the natural relation of controlling and being controlled by one another, while injustice is to cause the one to rule or be ruled by the other contrary to nature?

4.444

Exactly so,

4.444

he said.

4.444

Virtue, then, as it seems, would be a kind of healthThe identification of virtue with spiritual health really, as Plato says (445 A), answers the main question of the Republic. It is not explicitly used as one of the three final arguments in the ninth book, but is implied in 591 B. It is found already in Crito 47 D-E. Cf. Gorgias 479 B and beauty and good condition of the soul, and vice would be disease,κακία . . . αἶσχος: Sophist 228 E distinguishes two forms of κακία· νόσος or moral evil, and ignorance or αἰσχος. Cf. Gorgias 477 B. ugliness, and weakness.

4.444

It is so.

4.444

Then is it not also true that beautiful and honorable pursuits tend to the winning of virtue and the ugly to vice?

4.444

Of necessity.

4.445

And now at last, it seems, it remains for us to consider whether it is profitable to do justice and practice honorable pursuits and be just, whetherἐάν τε . . . ἐάν τε: Cf. 337 C, 367 E, 427 D, 429 E. one is known to be such or not, or whether injustice profits, and to be unjust, if only a man escape punishment and is not bettered by chastisement.Cf. Gorgias 512 A-B, and on 380 B.

4.445

Nay, Socrates,

4.445

he said,

4.445

I think that from this point on our inquiry becomes an absurdityCf. on 456 D. On the following argumentum ex contrario Cf. on 336 E.—if, while life is admittedly intolerable with a ruined constitution of body even though accompanied by all the food and drink and wealth and power in the world, we are yet to be asked to suppose that, when the very nature and constitution of that whereby we liveCf. on 353 D and Aristotle De anima 414 a 12 ff. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 41. is disordered and corrupted, life is going to be worth living, if a man can only do as he pleases,Cf. 577 D, Gorgias 466 E. If all men desire the good, he who does evil does not do what he really wishes. and pleases to do anything save that which will rid him of evil and injustice and make him possessed of justice and virtue—now that the two have been shown to be as we have described them.

4.445

Yes, it is absurd,

4.445

said I;

4.445

but nevertheless, now that we have won to this height, we must not grow weary in endeavoring to discover ὅσον . . . κατιδεῖν is generally taken as epexegetic of ἐνταῦθα. It is rather well felt with οὐ χρὴ ἀποκάμνειν. with the utmost possible clearness that these things are so.

4.445

That is the last thing in the world we must do,

4.445

he said.

4.445

Come up hereCf. Apology 25 C. then,

4.445

said I,

4.445

that you may see how many are the kinds of evil, I mean those that it is worth while to observe and distinguish.ἅ γε δὴ καὶ ἄξια θέας: for καί Cf. Sophist 223 A, 229 D, Timaeus 83 C, Politicus 285 B, and 544 A, C-D. By the strict theory of ideas any distinction may mark a class, and so constitute an idea. (Cf. De Platonis Idearum Doctrina, pp. 22-25.) But Plato’s logical practice recognizes that only typical or relevant Ideas are worth naming or considering. The Republic does not raise the metaphysical question how a true idea is to be distinguished from a part or from a partial or casual concept. Cf. Unity of Plato’s Thought, pp. 52-53, n. 381, Politicus 263 A-B.

4.445

I am with you,

4.445

he said;

4.445

only do you say on.

4.445

And truly,

4.445

said I,

4.445

now that we have come to this heightCf. 588 B, Emerson, Nominalist and Realist, ii. p. 256: We like to come to a height of land and see the landscape, just as we value a general remark in a conversation. Cf. Lowell, Democracy, Prose Works, vi. 8: He who has mounted the tower of Plato to look abroad from it will never hope to climb another with so lofty a vantage of speculation. From this and 517 A-B, the ἀνάβασις became a technical or cant term in Neoplatonism. of argument I seem to see as from a point of outlook that there is one form ἓν μέν, etc.: perhaps a faint remembrance of the line ἐσθλοὶ μὲν γὰρ ἁπλῶς, παντοδαπῶς δὲ κακοί, quoted by Aristotle Eth. Nic. 1106 b 35. It suggests Plato’s principle of the unity of virtue, as ἄπειρα below suggests the logical doctrine of the Philebus 16 and Parmenides 145 A, 158 B-C that the other of the definite idea is the indefinite and infinite. of excellence, and that the forms of evil are infinite, yet that there are some four among them that it is worth while to take note of.

4.445

What do you mean?

4.445

he said.

4.445

As many as are the varieties of political constitutions that constitute specific types, so many, it seems likely, are the characters of soul.

4.445

How many, pray?

4.445

There are five kinds of constitutions,

4.445

said I,

4.445

and five kinds of soul.

4.445

Tell me what they are,

4.445

he said.

4.445

I tell you,

4.445

said I,

4.445

that one way of government would be the constitution that we have just expounded, but the names that might be applied to it are two.The true state is that in which knowledge governs. It may be named indifferently monarchy, or aristocracy, according as such knowledge happens to be found in one or more than one. It can never be the possession of many. Cf. 494 A. The inconsistencies which some critics have found between this statement and other parts of the Republic, are imaginary. Hitherto the Republic has contemplated a plurality of rulers, and such is its scheme to the end. But we are explicitly warned in 540 D and 587 D that this is a matter of indefference. It is idle then to argue with Immisch, Krohn, and others that the passage marks a sudden, violent alteration of the original design. If one man of surpassing merit rose among the rulers, it would be denominated royalty; if more than one, aristocracy.

4.445

True,

4.445

he said.

4.445

Well, then,

4.445

I said,

4.445

this is one of the forms I have in mind. For neither would a number of such men, nor one if he arose among them, alter to any extent worth mentioning the laws of our city—if he preserved the breeding and the education that we have described.

4.445

It is not likely,

4.445

he said.

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